31-03-2004 05:44									#61
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Space05us quote: Irrelevant. Genes don't measure how similar your traits are. There is some correlation, but having a 95% match doesn't mean I'm 95% like them. please, please, please, explain why I look like my relatives. I had thought it was because of genes, but you say otherwise.

I think he's arguing on the species level.


At any rate, my understanding is that there are more genetic variations within 'races' than between them. That puts a crimp on genes as an explanation for why other 'races' must be different. (OR put another way, why not define races based on hair or eye colour)

	31-03-2004 05:47									#62
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: At any rate, my understanding is that there are more genetic variations within 'races' than between them. That puts a crimp on genes as an explanation for why other 'races' must be different. (OR put another way, why not define races based on hair or eye colour)

Because given that definition, a child of two parents of the same "race" would stand a significant chance of being of a different race from his parents, compared to the virtually impossibility of two black people having a white child

Also, the thing about differences between races is this: the % correlation between the "average" genome for black people and the "average" genome for white people is higher than the % correlation between the genome of people on the extreme ends of the distribution of white people (or black people). This is because the genome contains many things that are not related to race.

	31-03-2004 05:49									#63
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by Kucinich Besides skin color and certain genetic tendencies, and the fact that many people of a particular race happen to share similar circumstances.

I was referring to the statement comparing birds to humans.

	31-03-2004 05:50									#64
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Oh, OK.

	31-03-2004 05:55									#65
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: You share a smaller percent of your genome with your mom than you do with a male chimp

So my traits are a result of my genetic makeup. You cant have it both way skywalker

quote: (OR put another way, why not define races based on hair or eye colour)

You can, a good historical example: Hitler said arians were white and had blonde hair and blue eyes, his 'master race'.

	31-03-2004 05:58									#66
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by Space05us quote: You share a smaller percent of your genome with your mom than you do with a male chimp So my traits are a result of my genetic makeup. You cant have it both way skywalker

So you think you share more physically with a male chimp than with your mom?

I've never said that your traits aren't a result of your genes, it's that % correlation between two genomes says almost nothing about % correlation between phenotypes (it provides a huge range of potential % correlations between phenotypes).

quote: quote: (OR put another way, why not define races based on hair or eye colour) You can, a good historical example: Hitler said arians were white and had blonde hair and blue eyes, his 'master race'.

And you know what? That definition doesn't work very well.

	31-03-2004 06:07									#67
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: And you know what? That definition doesn't work very well.

niether does saying one person is black and the other is white.

quote: I've never said that your traits aren't a result of your genes, it's that % correlation between two genomes says almost nothing about % correlation between phenotypes (it provides a huge range of potential % correlations between phenotypes).

quote: Irrelevant. Genes don't measure how similar your traits are

quote: Second, relatively small changes in the genome can have HUGE consequences at the level of the entire organism.

Im almost 100% geneticaly identical to my mom arent I?

	31-03-2004 06:11									#68
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Im almost 100% geneticaly identical to my mom arent I?

No - you have an ENTIRE CHROMOSOME DIFFERENT. Besides the difference between your OTHER genes that you inherited from your dad.

quote: niether does saying one person is black and the other is white.

Yes it does - generally, the children of black people are black and the children of white people are white

	31-03-2004 06:14									#69
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: No - you have an ENTIRE CHROMOSOME DIFFERENT. Besides the difference between your OTHER genes that you inherited from your dad.

whats the % difference between our genotypes?

quote: Yes it does - generally, the children of black people are black and the children of white people are white

whats the % difference bewtween a black person and me?

	31-03-2004 06:17									#70
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: whats the % difference between our genotypes?

Pretty big, comparatively. There are 46 chromosomes in the human genome. In the case between you and your mom, one of them is a completely different chromosome.

quote: whats the % difference bewtween a black person and me?

Assuming you are an "average" white person, much smaller than the largest % difference between white people.

	31-03-2004 06:23									#71
	Tired of ads?

quote: Pretty big, comparatively. There are 46 chromosomes in the human genome. In the case between you and your mom, one of them is a completely different chromosome.

quote: Assuming you are an "average" white person, much smaller than the largest % difference between white people.

But you already said my phenotype isnt dependent on my genotype! Make up your mind!

quote: Irrelevant. Genes don't measure how similar your traits are.

just admit you were wrong when you made this statement and I'll be happy.

	31-03-2004 09:15									#72
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Cali and PA, sitting in a tree . . . .

K I S S I N G

	31-03-2004 09:18									#73
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: But you already said my phenotype isnt dependent on my genotype! Make up your mind!

No! I've said % correlation in genotype does not correspond to % correlation in phenotype.

quote: quote: Irrelevant. Genes don't measure how similar your traits are. just admit you were wrong when you made this statement and I'll be happy.

Change "genes" to "% correlation in genotype". Happy now?

	31-03-2004 09:29									#74
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by Kucinich Irrelevant. Genes don't measure how similar your traits are. There is some correlation, but having a 95% match doesn't mean I'm 95% like them.

I never said it measured behavioural traits, I said it measured physical traits.

Behavior is measured by society and upbringing. Physical characteristics (as in do I have feet or fins) are determined by genes. How can genes NOT measure how similar your physical traits are? Or am I misunderstanding you...

	31-03-2004 09:34									#75
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by Big Crunch I think he's arguing on the species level. At any rate, my understanding is that there are more genetic variations within 'races' than between them. That puts a crimp on genes as an explanation for why other 'races' must be different. (OR put another way, why not define races based on hair or eye colour)

This is true. Physical differences between races are due more or less to whats called "founder effect", and generally to whats called "micro-evolution". But the differences are very very slim, you're right.

	31-03-2004 09:36									#76
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by Caligastia Show me proof that in all non-superficial matters all races are equal, then you can call me a bad person for refusing to believe it.

Equal in what? Abilities? Genetics? What?

	31-03-2004 09:38									#77
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by Kucinich Pretty big, comparatively. There are 46 chromosomes in the human genome. In the case between you and your mom, one of them is a [i]completely different chromosome

It doesn't matter that much. The genetic variation between any two human beings is like 0.001%.

	31-03-2004 09:38									#78
	Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by JimmyCracksCorn I never said it measured behavioural traits, I said it measured physical traits.

I'm talking about physical traits, behavioral traits, EVERYTHING. It's called "phenotype".

quote: Behavior is measured by society and upbringing. Physical characteristics (as in do I have feet or fins) are determined by genes. How can genes NOT measure how similar your physical traits are? Or am I misunderstanding you...

Misunderstanding me.

Genotype is the genome. Phenotype is the traits that are expressed. Phenotype can be somewhat plastic - it is not necessarily dependent on genes (i.e. there can be environmental components). My point is that % correlation between genomes tells you virtually nothing about % correlation between the phenotype, even ignoring environmental factors.

	31-03-2004 09:40									#79
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger It doesn't matter that much. The genetic variation between any two human beings is like 0.001%.

Forty-six chromosomes. One of them completely different makes roughly 2% of the genome. Even given that the sex chromosomes are slightly shorter than average, the difference between men and women based on that alone is significant.

	31-03-2004 09:40									#80
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by Caligastia Why? It's a scientific question, not a moral one. Show me proof that in all non-superficial matters all races are equal, then you can call me a bad person for refusing to believe it.

Blacks tend to have a larger muscular mass, and I think northern Europeans are larger. But tjese are superficial matters right? You wouldn't think that certain races have better intellectual capabilities?

	31-03-2004 09:43									#81
	Increase the size of your Attachments

That's certainly possible. I doubt that it's true, but it there is no particular reason it is necessarily false.

	31-03-2004 09:48									#82
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by Kucinich Forty-six chromosomes. One of them completely different makes roughly 2% of the genome.

Where did you get "one completely chromosome" from? 23 of them came from your father and 23 of them came from your mother. But you are not 50% different from either your mother or your father.

quote: Originally posted by Kucinich Even given that the sex chromosomes are slightly shorter than average, the difference between men and women based on that alone is significant.

Actually no. As a % of total number of genes, the difference is very small. You have to realise that most people have very similar genes - even chimps are 98% identical to us. So it's not possible that any person is 2% different from their direct parents.

	31-03-2004 10:07									#83
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger Where did you get "one completely chromosome" from? 23 of them came from your father and 23 of them came from your mother. But you are not 50% different from either your mother or your father.

X and Y chromosome.

	31-03-2004 14:04									#84
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

"Blacks tend to have a larger muscular mass"

Isn't that only true of those that survived slavetrips to the US (and their descendants)?

"and I think northern Europeans are larger."

Yes. True especially with some Scandinavian countries.

"But thjese are superficial matters right?"

Those are the only damn differences that exist! nything else is racism!!

	31-03-2004 20:24									#85
	Full PM-box? Change here!

I have to agree with PA to an extent. Scientifically noticing differences is not racism, for example, those of African descent are going to have more melanine in their skin than a caucasian. This is what we call an empirical observation.

However, identifying positivity and negativity there is an inherently racist proposition, since it is positive discrimination. Taking actions based upon that is applied discrimination, be it positive or negative.

	31-03-2004 20:29									#86
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Hmm. I wonder what Paul Hornung would say about this. Oh right, I know...

	31-03-2004 21:31									#87
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Thanks Whaleboy. There are a lot of differences in my opinion, but that doesn't mean ascribing "positive" or "negative" to any of them like Laz thinks.

	31-03-2004 21:45									#88
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

I don't think ascribing positivity or negativity is inherently racist. Refusing to describe an attribute as positive or negative is just silly if it's obvious that it's one or the other. For example if one race has a greater resistance to a certain kind of disease than another race, are we supposed to pretend it's not positive because to recognise this would be racist?

	31-03-2004 21:51									#89
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Change "genes" to "% correlation in genotype". Happy now?

I am... that was a good flame

	31-03-2004 22:01									#90
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Thanks Whaleboy. There are a lot of differences in my opinion, but that doesn't mean ascribing "positive" or "negative" to any of them like Laz thinks.

Well it's a folly to assume that all men are equal, seeing as how we are all different. We should be aware that the differences between us as individuals are far greater than differences due to ethnicity, gender etc. There is very little you can do with the knowledge of those differences without being racist, but accepting that knowledge is not racist in itself.