31-03-2004 22:08									#91
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quote: Originally posted by Space05us quote: (OR put another way, why not define races based on hair or eye colour) You can, a good historical example: Hitler said arians were white and had blonde hair and blue eyes, his 'master race'.

That's my point. Race defintions are completely arbitrary.

	31-03-2004 22:09									#92
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quote: Originally posted by Kucinich quote: At any rate, my understanding is that there are more genetic variations within 'races' than between them. That puts a crimp on genes as an explanation for why other 'races' must be different. (OR put another way, why not define races based on hair or eye colour) Because given that definition, a child of two parents of the same "race" would stand a significant chance of being of a different race from his parents, compared to the virtually impossibility of two black people having a white child

Are you saying that if someone has a black father and white mother they are of neither race? If they're not of either, then why draw such a distinction that hair and eye colour can't define a race but skin colour can? In both cases the offspring can be of a different race.

And if we are going to restrict inter-breeding (for the purpose of the thought experiment only), then if two blonde parents have a child, they'll have in all probability a blonde child, and if two brown haired parents (without recessive genes - after all we are only interested in pure specimens) had a baby it would almost definitely be brown haired.

Simply put, you could construct a race based on other features, until that is, they start interbreeding. The same is patently true for race distinction based on skin colour.

	31-03-2004 22:11									#93
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quote: Race defintions are completely arbitrary

but they aren't

Recognizing differences is a scientific importance. If one can't acknowledge these differences and react accordingly than a lot of knowledge will be lost or ungained... Yet, such a thing would be racist, of course, but not in a bad way. I generally use the term racism as meaning a negative reflection of differences due to race.

Hypothesis' are assumptions.

	31-03-2004 22:27									#94
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quote: Originally posted by Japher but they aren't Recognizing differences is a scientific importance. If one can't acknowledge these differences and react accordingly than a lot of knowledge will be lost or ungained... Yet, such a thing would be racist, of course, but not in a bad way. I generally use the term racism as meaning a negative reflection of differences due to race. Hypothesis' are assumptions.

You don't need to define races to recognise differences between different groups of people, and changing the definition of a race will not remove that recognition.

	31-03-2004 22:33									#95
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For those who are creating race definitions:

What race is Tiger Woods?

	31-03-2004 22:34									#96
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quote: You don't need to define races to recognise differences between different groups of people

Works for me, but try and tell the African American society that they will now be refered to as people with black skin... "Black Skinned Pride" just doesn't have the same ring to it.

	31-03-2004 22:35									#97
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quote: What race is Tiger Woods?

or Jacko for that matter

	31-03-2004 22:37									#98
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Jacko's changes are cosmetic.

But the question still stands- If a child has one "white", "black", "Asia" and "Indian" grandparent each- what race is the child?

	31-03-2004 22:42									#99
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quote: Originally posted by Kucinich You share a smaller percent of your genome with your mom than you do with a male chimp, say, but you are more phenotypically similar to her than to the male chimp (correct me if I'm wrong ). % correlation of genotype cannot be directly translated to % correlation of phenotype.

Strawman. In the first half of your argument you are saying 50% share with mom; by that logic you share 0% with any given chimp. (I hope )

	31-03-2004 22:51									#100
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quote: But the question still stands- If a child has one "white", "black", "Asia" and "Indian" grandparent each- what race is the child?

Sounds American to me...

That kid would have a serious identity complex, but it would be good to know the lineage in order to predict, watch for, and keep mind of any developmental or medical problems.

	31-03-2004 22:54									#101
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia I don't think ascribing positivity or negativity is inherently racist. Refusing to describe an attribute as positive or negative is just silly if it's obvious that it's one or the other. For example if one race has a greater resistance to a certain kind of disease than another race, are we supposed to pretend it's not positive because to recognise this would be racist?

OK let me try again.

1. You have certain undeniable physical traits.

Black people are black.

Blond people are blond.

(so what?)

2. Then you have some debatable physical traits.

White men can't jump.

-how reliable is physical data observed in a selection set "elite athletes" that is exclusively three standard deviations from the mean, as a predictor of the NORM?

Generally, not reliable at all.

3. Then you have observations and statistics, dealing with non-physical items (behaviours) which are made by people with biases, and impossibly corrupted by uncountable, undefinable factors.

Linking those observations about behaviours with obvious physical traits is not science. It is racism.
The links only exist because you believe they do.

	31-03-2004 22:57									#102
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"But the question still stands- If a child has one "white", "black", "Asia" and "Indian" grandparent each- what race is the child?"

I think PA would call such a child "mongrel".

Last edited by Gibsie on 31-03-2004 at 23:03

	31-03-2004 22:59									#103
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quote: -how reliable is physical data observed in a selection set "elite athletes" that is exclusively three standard deviations from the mean, as a predictor of the NORM?

Why are most 'elite atheletes' for a given event generally of a similar ethnic background? I.e. there aren't a whole lot of good WR or Olympic Sprinters that aren't black.

quote: Linking those observations about behaviours with obvious physical traits is not science. It is racism. The links only exist because you believe they do.

I am going to forward this statement off to the national board of behavioral sciences and see what they have to say... mmm-kay?

	31-03-2004 23:08									#104
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quote: Originally posted by Japher Why are most 'elite atheletes' for a given event generally of a similar ethnic background? I.e. there aren't a whole lot of good WR or Olympic Sprinters that aren't black.

So black people can run but can't swim? And they can;t throw discuss or lift weights, bu they can box? What about shooting?

	31-03-2004 23:10									#105
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only when driving

	01-04-2004 00:14									#106
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GePap, now your getting the picture

quote: So black people can run but can't swim?

Not as well as white people, or Chinese "women"

In general, however, swimming is a learned ability. Most black people choose not to swim as it is not as highly reveared in their society as other sports... Racial Society Influence (RSI).

quote: And they can;t throw discuss or lift weights

Not as well as white people I guess. Could be due to RSI or the fact that most weight lifters are shorter than general members of their race, this gives them a lower center of gravity, and thus a better ability to lift heavy things over their heads.

quote: , bu they can box? What about shooting?

Black boxer have some of the best reaches which is technical advantage in boxing... Butterbean can't hold a candle to some of 'em.

@C0ckney

	01-04-2004 00:35									#107
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quote: Originally posted by GePap For those who are creating race definitions: What race is Tiger Woods?

The fact that a category has "extremes" at which it fails does not mean the category does not exist (or at least that it isn't useful). Tell me EXACTLY where the Amazon becomes the Atlantic, or neither of them exist!

	01-04-2004 00:40									#108
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quote: Originally posted by Kucinich The fact that a category has "extremes" at which it fails does not mean the category does not exist (or at least that it isn't useful). Tell me EXACTLY where the Amazon becomes the Atlantic, or neither of them exist!

Actually, the Amazon has a well defined Delta region. So the Amazon ends, you get the Amazon Delta, and then the Ocean Not that hard to know at all.

Tiger Woods is not an extreme at all-if anything, he is the opposite of extremes.

For example-which trait is more important-shape of nose and lips, or skin color? Is somene from india with black skin and narrow high bridge nose the same race as a light skinned narrow high bridge nose person, or a dark skin flat, broad nose person?

Are arabs "white"? or is there a distinction between Arabs and Germans?

Sorry, but the factors are so many, and most importantly, they all disappear through the generations with enough breeding.

	01-04-2004 00:43									#109
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quote: Sorry, but the factors are so many, and most importantly, they all disappear through the generations with enough breeding.

True. It should be against the law to marry within ones race...

quote: Tiger Woods is not an extreme at all-if anything, he is the opposite of extremes.

Yup, all black people are good at sports and have fondness for white chicks

	01-04-2004 00:48									#110
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I have already said this, but in terms of genetic drift, the pygmies and the people of Ethiopia are further apart than a Maori and a Swede, or a Russian from Andean indian. Most of the superficial differences between human beings appeared relatively recent due to having to adapt to new conditions. If anyone doubts the speed at which this can happen, look what man has done to dogs in the last 10,000 years. All dogs are the same species even though looking at a Chihauhau and a great dane you might not see it.

	01-04-2004 00:49									#111
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quote: Originally posted by GePap Actually, the Amazon has a well defined Delta region. So the Amazon ends, you get the Amazon Delta, and then the Ocean Not that hard to know at all.

Take a piece of string and lay it across the delta, exactly along the line where the river "ends" and the ocean "begins".

How about this? What's the border between "liberals" and "conservatives"?

The fact the a group has fuzzy edges, does not mean that it isn't valid.

	01-04-2004 01:59									#112
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quote: Originally posted by Japher Why are most 'elite atheletes' for a given event generally of a similar ethnic background? I.e. there aren't a whole lot of good WR or Olympic Sprinters that aren't black.

Thats what I'm talking about. You are genarilizing about ALL BLACK PEOPLE based on elite athletes. This is a selection set taken from a miniscule fraction of ALL BLACK PEOPLE, an entirely non-random set, known to represent and extreme that is 3 or 4 standard deviations away from the norm.

You have NO EVIDENCE that this represents ALL BLACK PEOPLE, yet, due to racism, people choose to believe that black people are better runners and jumpers.

quote: I am going to forward this statement off to the national board of behavioral sciences and see what they have to say... mmm-kay?

What the fvck would they know about it? They base all their conclusions on human behaviour on tests involving white rats and rhesus monkeys!

	01-04-2004 02:04									#113
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quote: Originally posted by Kucinich quote: Originally posted by GePap Actually, the Amazon has a well defined Delta region. So the Amazon ends, you get the Amazon Delta, and then the Ocean Not that hard to know at all. Take a piece of string and lay it across the delta, exactly along the line where the river "ends" and the ocean "begins". How about this? What's the border between "liberals" and "conservatives"? The fact the a group has fuzzy edges, does not mean that it isn't valid.

Notice how all the example you are using are dualities?

We are not talking a case were you can decide at the borders to arbitrarilly say X or Y, and be sure about the vast mayority of X and Y. Here the choice is between X,Y,Z, W, R, T, J,K, L, J, P, G, B, and C and on top of that, you can't even create a good definition of any of the letters.

For exmaple, as you have never yet said, are Arab's "white"? Why are the Chinese and Japanese one race? or are they actually two races?

	01-04-2004 21:51									#114
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Race and differences are ..different things.

Like, you have scientific differences, but that does not constitute a race. That is a definition based upon a certain grouping of those differences, or perhaps a geographic relationship, put together as a means of subdividing peoples.

Race according to skin colour is like race according to eye colour, however the former is seemingly of more historical importance. It is however completely arbitrary, like I said earlier, the differences between us as individuals are far far greater than any differences caused by small genetic variations.

	01-04-2004 23:50									#115
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quote: Originally posted by GePap But the question still stands- If a child has one "white", "black", "Asia" and "Indian" grandparent each- what race is the child?

Human. Outside of disease risk, race is only relevant insofar as people get touchy about it, IMO. Until there are obsessive polls in the papers about which politicians appeal to the miscellaneous-negro-asian-honky-american vote, that child is mercifully free of race, and can concentrate on marginally less stupid things to give him/her a sense of belonging. Maybe joining the shriners.

	02-04-2004 00:14									#116
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quote: Originally posted by GePap Notice how all the example you are using are dualities? We are not talking a case were you can decide at the borders to arbitrarilly say X or Y, and be sure about the vast mayority of X and Y. Here the choice is between X,Y,Z, W, R, T, J,K, L, J, P, G, B, and C and on top of that, you can't even create a good definition of any of the letters. For exmaple, as you have never yet said, are Arab's "white"? Why are the Chinese and Japanese one race? or are they actually two races?

Different people give different definitions. The point is that the concept is valid.

You can also be, say, 1/2 white and 1/2 asian.

	02-04-2004 00:15									#117
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quote: Originally posted by Whaleboy Race and differences are ..different things. Like, you have scientific differences, but that does not constitute a race. That is a definition based upon a certain grouping of those differences, or perhaps a geographic relationship, put together as a means of subdividing peoples. Race according to skin colour is like race according to eye colour, however the former is seemingly of more historical importance. It is however completely arbitrary, like I said earlier, the differences between us as individuals are far far greater than any differences caused by small genetic variations.

Skin color is a more "valid" category for race because skin color is inherited with much less variation.

	02-04-2004 00:22									#118
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quote: Skin color is a more "valid" category for race because skin color is inherited with much less variation.

True, but a similar situation occurs with eye colour, height etc etc. It's a useless definition for race, since I'd use the term ideally to mean members of a species who can mate with each other and produce fertile offspring.

At once conscious and individual are the only two distinctions imo that aren't fallacious.

	02-04-2004 10:39									#119
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quote: True, but a similar situation occurs with eye colour, height etc etc. It's a useless definition for race, since I'd use the term ideally to mean members of a species who can mate with each other and produce fertile offspring.

That's a completely different meaning of the term "race" - it is distinct from the one referring to skin color.

In contrast to eye color, skin color actually is a useful category when looking at group statistics, because it is directly associated with a number of other truly valid categories.

	02-04-2004 22:37									#120
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quote: In contrast to eye color, skin color actually is a useful category when looking at group statistics, because it is directly associated with a number of other truly valid categories.

But enough to classify as a race? You could look at it as subsets within the human race, for example, consistent genetic variations related to geographical distribution. Nonetheless, the genetic variation among humans is incredibly low compared to other mammalian species due to a bottleneck about 75'000 years ago that reduced this species to a few thousand individuals.