01-04-2004 01:14									#31
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GM foods are harsher on the environment. Pesticide resitent crops mean that they can drench fields on toxics without having to worry about the crop dying. We already have a big problem with runoff pollution, this will make it much worse.

	01-04-2004 01:15									#32
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quote: Originally posted by MOBIUS I think the only thing hysterical on this thread are the comments from some of the pro GM side... I said before - I SUPPORT THE IDEA OF GM!

maybe u want to change ur first post cuz u seem to have the words "good riddance" in them. to mine ears that does not sound like support.

	01-04-2004 01:18									#33
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I like the idea of GM foods, but I think they should be labled with the modification. Also, one of th purposes of GM foods is to consolidate control of agriculture. No company owns natural seeds, so the farmer can save a stock from his harvest to replant. With GM seeds, the company owns the patent, so saving the seeds would be a patent violation. This costs the farmer more money, and will end up driving more small farmers out of business.

	01-04-2004 01:19									#34
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quote: I mean it's all very well being brainlessly gullible and getting spoonfed what the govt tells you without questioning it

your brave rebellion against food has been duly noted.

	01-04-2004 01:19									#35
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara I like the idea of GM foods, but I think they should be labled with the modification. Also, one of th purposes of GM foods is to consolidate control of agriculture. No company owns natural seeds, so the farmer can save a stock from his harvest to replant. With GM seeds, the company owns the patent, so saving the seeds would be a patent violation. This costs the farmer more money, and will end up driving more small farmers out of business.

I think we should be in the business of driving small farmers out of business. do they have some god given right to farm that I was unaware of?

	01-04-2004 01:24									#36
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quote: Originally posted by yavoon maybe u want to change ur first post cuz u seem to have the words "good riddance" in them. to mine ears that does not sound like support.

And then I went on to post my opinions as to why...

It could be the fact that you're using your ears to read this thread is why you missed that salient point in the 1st place.

	01-04-2004 01:26									#37
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quote: Originally posted by MOBIUS And then I went on to post my opinions as to why... It could be the fact that you're using your ears to read this thread is why you missed that salient point in the 1st place.

like I said, edit first post. it is obviously misleading as to ur intention and will only save u much time and annoyance by conveying ur real intentions in ur first post. would it not? or do u like screaming at ppl to digup every post u've made because they seem to contradict each other?

is that explained out enuff for u?

	01-04-2004 01:27									#38
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quote: We already have a big problem with runoff pollution, this will make it much worse.

Well, the compound that it is used the most with, glyphosate (Roundup, etc.), breaks down within days to harmless stuff anyway. But you are right that in the short-term GM may increase herbicide usage on some crops.

On the other hand, you can burn down the weeds so much that they stay dead and you won't have to redose the field. IOW, it's a more complicated picture.

Edit: I might add that there are a lot of GM foods that drastically reduce insecticide usage. Bt corn, cotton, etc.

	01-04-2004 01:27									#39
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quote: Also, one of th purposes of GM foods is to consolidate control of agriculture. No company owns natural seeds, so the farmer can save a stock from his harvest to replant. With GM seeds, the company owns the patent, so saving the seeds would be a patent violation. This costs the farmer more money, and will end up driving more small farmers out of business.

That doesn't make sense. If these seeds will drive small farmers out of bussiness, they're not economical, and the farmers shouldn't be buying them in the first place. but, boy are they buying.

	01-04-2004 01:34									#40
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quote: Originally posted by yavoon like I said, edit first post. it is obviously misleading as to ur intention and will only save u much time and annoyance by conveying ur real intentions in ur first post. would it not? or do u like screaming at ppl to digup every post u've made because they seem to contradict each other? is that explained out enuff for u?

It explains that you appear to have problems with reading comprehension.

My first post stands, I have a problem with GM policy in the UK in its current form.

If they can find a more palatable (pun intended) way to promote in this country, I would consider supporting it.

Why is that so difficult to understand?

	01-04-2004 01:35									#41
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quote: GM foods are harsher on the environment. Pesticide resitent crops mean that they can drench fields on toxics without having to worry about the crop dying. We already have a big problem with runoff pollution, this will make it much worse.

...and then there are genetically modified crops which are more resistant to pests, thus lowering the amount of pesticide needed. Interesting, isn't it?


And now, time for some quick, more personal opinions:

quote: I think we should be in the business of driving small farmers out of business.

no

quote: do they have some god given right to farm that I was unaware of?

no

quote: I like the idea of GM foods, but I think they should be labled with the modification.

Inserting labels of 'this is GM' on the covers of ready products? Yes.

quote: Also, one of th purposes of GM foods is to consolidate control of agriculture. No company owns natural seeds, so the farmer can save a stock from his harvest to replant. With GM seeds, the company owns the patent, so saving the seeds would be a patent violation. This costs the farmer more money, and will end up driving more small farmers out of business.

I think I've heard about the patent procedure before... hasn't this been a big problem in India? I think the the whole idea that a corporation should have a patent (ie. justified monopoly) for any plant is total bs.

	01-04-2004 01:35									#42
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quote: Originally posted by MOBIUS It explains that you appear to have problems with reading comprehension. My first post stands, I have a problem with GM policy in the UK in its current form. If they can find a more palatable (pun intended) way to promote in this country, I would consider supporting it. Why is that so difficult to understand?

its not difficult to understand. but what u typed here is not in ur original post. which is why I recommended editing it. I worry about ur recalcitrance, it seems unwaranted. I am not the bad guy. halp u to halp meh!

	01-04-2004 01:52									#43
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I want to buy GM food.

	01-04-2004 02:22									#44
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There's nothing dangerous about GM foods. They are simply useless, that's all. We have much more food than we can possibly use. And patenting life-forms should be abolished as soon as possible, frankly.

	01-04-2004 02:24									#45
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"We have much more food than we can possibly use."

It's not about quantity and nothing else. if we can make the same quality of food cheaper, or the same price food healthier, then why not. If GM can do this, then I am in favour and would buy it.

	01-04-2004 02:38									#46
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Fair enough, but a better quality/cost and health/cost ratio can be achieved in simpler ways. Cutting the amount of salt in processed food, for example. That would help people's health far more than anything biotech is likely to cook up in the near future.

	01-04-2004 02:45									#47
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quote: They are simply useless, that's all. We have much more food than we can possibly use.

Now that statement is just weird. "We", as in EU countries have too much food since our own spineless goverments are licking farmers (the only special interest group in EU currently) butts' and giving huge subsidies to 'em for farming (farming subsidies [incl. tobacco subs.] take up more than 2/3 of the federal budget, don't they?). If we cut down the subsidies, the overproduction will stall and we'll save a ****load of money. Effectivily genetically modified food is more efficient to produce, thus more land is freed for special biodiversity areas and cities. And let's not forget that it also means that less workers are needed to produce the same amount as before.

	01-04-2004 03:12									#48
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Effectively genetically engineered food is more efficient to produce. The key word here is effective. It's not happened yet, has it?

We can designate more city-space and bio-zones simply by importing more from the developing world, rather than trying to hyper-charge our own food production, with the possible damage to soil that could entail. Even if we whole-heartedly embraced GM, we'd probably still not be able to compete with the developing world's lower labour costs.

I'm not sure how much labour you could save with GM foods, anyway. Farm work is already heavily mechanised, and it's difficult to see how much labour could be saved. The few labour intensive tasks left on the farm, such as picking strawberries, would be unlikely to be affected by GM technology.

	01-04-2004 03:16									#49
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quote: Originally posted by VJ ...and then there are genetically modified crops which are more resistant to pests, thus lowering the amount of pesticide needed. Interesting, isn't it?

Only as far as insects are concerned and only until said insects develop a resistence, which they tend to do. But weeds, diseases, and other pests will require spraying.

	01-04-2004 04:02									#50
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quote: Originally posted by VJ The were some basis for being against GM foods years back, when we didn't know if there were any negative consequences in consuming them. Now that the Americans have already tested the stuff for the rest of the globe, there is no reason to keep non-GM agricultural products as 'worse'.

You're assuming that the Americans are allowing GM foods to proliferate because they have been proven safe.

This is a false assumption.

	01-04-2004 04:03									#51
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GM foods bad autos but good for the belly.


Would Mendel be opposed to this? Is it that fundamentally different from what he did more than a century ago? All it is is using a finer blade.

	01-04-2004 04:05									#52
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Good for the U.K.!

Let's put an end to the patenting of living organisms, the destruction of natural crops, and the subsidization of corporate farms.

(If you're an Americano, you may add a 4th clause to the above sentence: Let's get Bovine Growth Hormone out of our goddamn milk!)

	01-04-2004 06:15									#53
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The problem w/ cloned plants is the lack of diversity in defense mechanisms. If you have 200 variations of a basic form of wheat, it is unlikely that any one disease will wipe them all out; hoever, a disease which affects the cloned Gm crops can quickly wipe out everythign around it, as there will be no variation in the plants.

There are also problems with containment. The effects of this have been seen already w/ farm raised as opposed to wild salmon. When the hatcherie salmon mix with wild populations, the factors that made the individual fish suited for faming (mainly rapid growth) cause them to outcompete many of the wild fish initially. Their long term survivability however is significatly lower, leading in the end to a collapse of population. It is a lrge part of why there are virtually no wild atlantic salmon left, and the pacific dsalmon are in similar danger (not to mention the dams, pollution, deforestation, and the rest of civilizations ills which have elimated much of their habitat)

In the end I am worried about gm crops and similar items not so much due to human health concerns from consuming them, but from ecological health resulting from their spread. This culture is all about 'production' and nothing makes for better production than uniformity. But diversity is what has allowed life to survive in the long run, and so activities which eliminate genetic potential I view as inherantly dangerous (read: suicidal)

	01-04-2004 11:52									#54
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There are several major reasons to oppose GM food:

1. GM food is absolutely unncessary. Food shortage is not caused by a shortfall in food production. It's the distribution.

2. GM crop seeds are sterile, that means the farmers cannot harvest seeds for next year, but must rely on large GM companies to supply them.

3. Spliced genes spread out into the environment with a staggering speed, with completely unknown effects.

4. GM crops kill things like butterflies, insects that pollenate the plants. Good move, that.

With no advantage and severe disadvantages, I cannot see what all the hysteria for GM food is about.

	01-04-2004 11:53									#55
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quote: Originally posted by asleepathewheel Is it that fundamentally different from what he did more than a century ago? All it is is using a finer blade.

Yes. You're splicing genes that cannot be found naturally in these species into them.

	01-04-2004 12:21									#56
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quote: Yes. You're splicing genes that cannot be found naturally in these species into them

wait, I thought genes move from species to species all the time.

	01-04-2004 14:13									#57
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Urban Ranger

quote: GM crop seeds are sterile, that means the farmers cannot harvest seeds for next year, but must rely on large GM companies to supply them.

Guess what? It's the same people complaining about that NOW who before were complaining that the seeds could reproduce and "contaminate" other plants.

	01-04-2004 15:39									#58
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I want my choice to eat GM foods. However even where it is labelled, organic standards don't allow GM crops I want GM foods, but I also don't want chemicals sprayed on them.

	01-04-2004 15:52									#59
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I'm disappointed that I'm not able to buy GM food and support this exciting and progressive technology. GM hasn't been 'foisted' on the UK - quite the reverse. We live in a relative dark age where science is viewed with suspicion and fear.

If the current fears about GM had been applied to previous technologies we could forget much of our progress. Innoculation - how dangerous is that? Radio waves - were we 100% sure that transmiting radiation everywhere was not harming babies? If the eco-lobby had been as powerful in the past they would have banned refrigeration.

Just because a government lies about WMD, it doesn't mean it is lying about agricultural policy. Such cynicism is counter-analytical.

As for labelling - you might as well put a skull and crossbones on the packet in this country - such is the reputation of "Saddam Monsanto" and the bio-tech companies.

I'm left hoping that the farmers of the third world are not denied access to this technology, so that they can improve their yields, enjoy a surplus and see economic growth.

btw - in some trials the GM crop was better for the environment that the organic crop

	01-04-2004 19:05									#60
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Unfortunately that one trial involved a pesticide that's being discontinued anyway. Oops.