03-04-2004 01:30									#1
	Design/implementation New Tile imps Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

I don’t know about the rest of you but I think the way actoscrap did tile imps borders on laziness.( I know I am lazy but come on )

Right what I am going at is this there a three farming tile imps yet there are five ages What I am proposing is that we re-model the number of tile imps and the way we can use them.

For example I think we need two more tile imps of each type. So we don’t have a gap between the agricultural revelation farm and the genetic one ( which if you look at we have modern farms of large amounts of machinery. The we have hydroponics farms, then we need one more .)

I would also like to sea a separation between shallow seas and deep seas for example a set of shallow sea imps and a set of deep sea imps

I don’t care if this goes historical as long as we get some ideas put up.

	03-04-2004 02:21									#2
	Inflate your Upload Space

I think there are enough as it is. But I think that a scroll bar on the Public Works menu would be handy to allow modders to add more than there currently are, should they so wish.

	03-04-2004 02:38									#3
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Big MC,

Let me kick in with these ideas:
10000 BC - gathering grains as we find them, simple irrigation, herding animals ?
6000 BC - animal domestication: horse, dogs, (cats?)
4000 BC - animal husbandry small farms with a few animals
2000 BC - grain farming in places like Egypt with single crop fields, animals bred for specific traits, complex irrigation projects, simple wooden plows
1 AD - crop rotation in use in Roman, African, Asian farms
1000 AD - introduction of the iron plow blade - allows farming in heavier soils like in Northern European plain - fields left fallow 1 year in 4
1700 AD - nitrogen fixing crop rotation - 4 crop rotation
1850 AD - Mendel's discovery of plant genetics - creating hybrids
1890 AD - Million acre industrial farms on NA Pairies
1950 AD - Pesticides, herbicides, fertilizer
2000 AD - Zero-tillage and dry land farming, drought resistant hybrids - Genetically modified crops

So it looks like to me that we need one farm type for ancient times with simple field design, one for plowed fields with crop rotation colours, a industrial look with single crop fields(?) with silo's and barns, then modern farms with centre pivot irrigation (or rolling line), combines, then the hydroponics. It's a shame that most of the graphical details for each get lost at higher resolutions.

As for the sea, anything shallow ocean should be ship based, where as the deep water developements should look more futuristic like genetic age cities, or like the mining operations in the movie Outland. Guess I better do some sketchs to see what is workable for the level of detail.

The one thing that occurs to me is that the initial undersea mining would be using ROV type miners where as later, it would be an fully automated facility. And geothermal powerplants would definitely be the way to go for an undersea city. Best way I can think of to provide energy on a useful scale. But would that be a tile improvement or a city improvment ?

I'll have to see what I can cobble together.


D.

	03-04-2004 04:21									#4
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It would be nice if modmakers could add more, but currently there are enough as it is. Add much more and PW will become just as much of a micromanagement hell as Civ2/3's settlers/workers.

	03-04-2004 05:35									#5
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well at least i think we need a different image for each Tile Imp for each era. Which changes (like city styles do)

its kinda dumb building a mine in ancient times, and having that exact same design fully functional in post-modern times. Not only that but you can still build (if u had low PW for example) the ancient design even if your in the diamond era.

Year 2194
News flash
"A new copper mine powered by horses and cart has recently been built in Canterbury"

what im saying is, AT LEAST the image should change with each era

Last edited by SMIFFGIG on 03-04-2004 at 05:40

	03-04-2004 11:30									#6
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I agree theres already enough to build along with dedicating PW to tile imps but there is a huge gap in some tile imps.

As a better spacing you could move Advanced Farms to Railroad tech or something.

	03-04-2004 14:26									#7
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SMIFFGIG is right

I hate updating my farms , mines ,etc

It would be good to add a tile imp manager whose job it is to go around upgrading tile imps. this would satisfy a lot of people.

	03-04-2004 15:26									#8
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I agree with The Big MC - there should be more tile improvements to fill in the gaps. In my opinion, to have a mine in 5000 BC is redicoulus. Of course there should be some production tile improvement, but then it probably shouldn't be called mine, or at least it should look differently. Also, if you think about it, it's kind of strange to have a mine placed on a mountain without an ore (good) - I mean logically it does not make a lot of sence. These are just some ideas I came up with reagrding this issue.

	03-04-2004 18:38									#9
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quote: Originally posted by The Big Mc SMIFFGIG is right I hate updating my farms , mines ,etc It would be good to add a tile imp manager whose job it is to go around upgrading tile imps. this would satisfy a lot of people.

Yep, upgrading is something I don't like at all, espacially late in the game, but as you can't trust those autofeatures.........

	03-04-2004 18:48									#10
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I also wouldn't mind having more/different TI's. We actually started more with 'mining' woods prior anything else. But we don't have any TI for this. (In other words mine for woods). Yes we have higher production with woods, but not 'enough', could be improved with a TI, me thinks.
For mines:
Again the romans had some quit efficient mines existing (same for the spanish [but 1600 years later]).
So maybe we shall have the mines a little bit more age-depended (including the graphics). More advanced in time and the basic model will become more efficient, just like 2 points per age, but starting with a lower value to offset it. (only as an )

	03-04-2004 22:07									#11
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You need to see what they did

Including eroding hillsides with large dams of watter


Remember this thread is not only about adding to the existing types but new types to like canals to move ships over land squares.

	05-04-2004 02:31									#12
	Increase Your PM Length

Canals would be great.

Forests should have mainly natural production and not commerce, and then have a Forest Mine that gives production and later in the game a Lumber Yard tile imp that gives lots of commerce. Perhaps after the Lumber Yard has been there for so many turns the forest and yard disappear leaving dead soil that needs to be terraformed.

Make Trading Posts and Outlet Malls only buildable on grass and plains.

	05-04-2004 04:50									#13
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i think like civ2 irrigation should be a prerequisite to farms too (possibly depending on the terrain) e.g. You would HAVE to irragate on desert terrain before you could even think of farming (at least plant farming e.g. vegetables)

	05-04-2004 12:49									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Maquiladora Forests should have mainly natural production and not commerce, and then have a Forest Mine that gives production and later in the game a Lumber Yard tile imp that gives lots of commerce. Perhaps after the Lumber Yard has been there for so many turns the forest and yard disappear leaving dead soil that needs to be terraformed. Make Trading Posts and Outlet Malls only buildable on grass and plains.

That was the way I was thinking about, but instead of turning dead, it shall change to plain, if all tiles around are plain, it shall change to desert , kind of showing the bad impact of erosion. Later in the game we could have a forest TI which would bring maybe not so much 'income' but would live the forest intact, this model would be representing 'modern' Lumber-yards, where they replant what has been cutted down. My suggestion would be, that this would be available with university (better studying of natures model )

	05-04-2004 18:54									#15
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I think definately make forest productive early on, seeing as theyre not gonna be very commercial in the Ancient era.

I like the idea of simple irrigation, perhaps its necessary to irrigate outwards from fresh water to place farms that arent next to fresh water, but then you could be buggered for the whole game if you havent got a river. Or should i say buggered until you get dry land farms.

	05-04-2004 19:29									#16
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Or a canal linking you to a river and the sea

Or a aqueduct to your city then irrigate from there

	05-04-2004 20:20									#17
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

We definitely need canals to allow movement for ships across land. If anyone has looked at a map of Belgium, it has almost more canals than roads. Parts of England are almost as bad.

The thing is that they didn't get popular until the Industrial Revolution. It poses a bit of a problem since it would have to be a tile improvement like a railway. But would the AI allow us to have a land tile that allows boat movement ? Otherwise it would simply be another road.

The other problem is with irrigation and that currently we don't need to have a water source. The way the AI handles tile improvements doesn't suggest it's setup to handle a restriction like needing water.

The need for specific resources to build certain units would be a great addition since it would make for interesting unit builds. Imagine if there wasn't an iron age and we were still using bronze for everything. The Chinese would have been ruling most of the world since they had unbelievably good bronzeworking by around 1500 BC. Some of the modern artistic work in Europe wasn't as good until the late 1800's.


D.

	13-07-2004 19:25									#18
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Canals really should be there. Expecially on istms.
I often create cities just to be able to pass ships from one ocean to another.

Bridges over one sqare would be interesting too.

	13-07-2004 21:01									#19
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quote: Originally posted by Gen.Dragolen We definitely need canals to allow movement for ships across land. ... It poses a bit of a problem since it would have to be a tile improvement like a railway. But would the AI allow us to have a land tile that allows boat movement?

The under-sea tunnel allows land units to cross water tiles, so we should be able to do the opposite.

quote: Originally posted by Mihai Canals really should be there. Expecially on istms. I often create cities just to be able to pass ships from one ocean to another. Bridges over one sqare would be interesting too.

I agree

	14-07-2004 14:40									#20
	Remove this text

I got to get the graphics together but i am having a hard time getting back into moding after my course has finished.

	17-07-2004 18:55									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Mihai Bridges over one sqare would be interesting too.

That would represent immense bridges, and I think they would have a similar tech requirement to undersea tunnels, which can do the same job...

	17-07-2004 19:10									#22
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I dont think bridges should be visible on earth size maps, i think a road over a river suits this enough. Maybe some penalty for crossing a river without a road ala *cough* civ3 would represent a bridge.

Canals are different, maybe they can move ships along, but cannot engage in any battle along a canal? So the canal is only used for movement, for example building battleships in a massive production land-locked city and moving them down. Dont know how realistic that is though.

	17-07-2004 22:09									#23
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Sounds realistic some ship yards are up river they sometimes build ships an sail them down rivers.

	19-07-2004 19:30									#24
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quote: Originally posted by Maquiladora I dont think bridges should be visible on earth size maps, i think a road over a river suits this enough. Maybe some penalty for crossing a river without a road ala *cough* civ3 would represent a bridge.

The one tile bridge would represent large modern structures like the bridge between Denmark and Norway or between New Brunswick and PEI here in Canada.

The civ3 penalty for crossing a river is also a good idea.

	19-07-2004 19:35									#25
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Flinx will you be willing to do the code for canals and navigable rivers. Is so any graphics I do will not be sitting around long so I will have some motivation.

	22-07-2004 06:11									#26
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The C3 penalty is that you don't get the road bonus until you discover Engineering.

	19-02-2005 23:40									#27
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quote: Originally posted by Flinx The one tile bridge would represent large modern structures like the bridge between Denmark and Norway or between New Brunswick and PEI here in Canada.

The bridge you might think about goes between Sweden and Denmark. http://osb.oeresundsbron.dk/frontpage/?lang=1

I solved the problem in "vanilla" CTP2 by allowing undersea tunnels in beaches with Mass Transit.

	21-02-2005 09:07									#28
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nice optimizer.

speaking of variety for tile imps. I notice that Activision had farms for all terrains occur at the same advance. Wouldn't be better to vary it (like farms on desert appear in modern times etc)