03-04-2004 08:39									#61
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I don't have to, since I've objected for the record.

	03-04-2004 08:42									#62
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quote: Originally posted by Seeker For the umpteenth time, the fetus is NOT a 'baby'. It's not a sentient human being at this time of pregnancy. It's a mass of organic tissue.

This procedure can in theory be performed right up to the time the fetus would deliver normally, and under Roe v. Wade, the fetus can be considered a human being for purposes of the state's protective interest from the onset of the third trimester, or earlier if and as medical science advances and allows for fetal viability at an earlier stage.

	03-04-2004 09:23									#63
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quote: It's not a sentient human being at this time of pregnancy.

I doubt it's sentient at birth either. What's your point?

	03-04-2004 09:35									#64
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It's birth? [/dinodoc]

	03-04-2004 09:37									#65
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I don't understand the question. Please rephrase.

	03-04-2004 09:39									#66
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Babies that have pain receptors would of course feel pain.

	03-04-2004 12:51									#67
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat I don't have to, since I've objected for the record.

We only have Kangaroo courts here at Apolyton. You have to answer the question or be shoved out of a helicopter.

	03-04-2004 14:21									#68
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ABORTION KILLS CHILDREN







BUT ONLY THE ONES THAT DESERVE IT

	03-04-2004 23:41									#69
	Re: Just curious... Does anything in this article cause anyone here to be outraged? Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by Lincoln "Does the fetus feel pain?" Judge Richard C. Casey asked Johnson, saying he had been told that studies of a type of abortion usually performed in the second trimester had concluded they do.

Oh boohoohoo, so a foetus can feel pain. So what? I have got news for you -- most if not all animals can feel pain, or sensations akin to it. Even amoebae. If you poke an amoeba with a sharp object, it moves away from it.

Next.

	04-04-2004 17:19									#70
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Maybe we should rip the arms and legs from your body and see if you make a reference to amoeba's to justify your pain.

	04-04-2004 17:42									#71
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quote: Just curious... Does anything in this article cause anyone here to be outraged?

Yes:

quote: "I don't think we would use those terms," Johnson said. "I think we would probably use a term like 'decompression of the skull' or 'reducing the contents of the skull.'"

What an incredible ***hole that guy is.

	04-04-2004 17:52									#72
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I don't support this procedure, and I think the doctor should take steps to avoid foetal pain during the abortion. I also oppose abortion at will after the thrid month, when the fetus begins to develop a nervous system.

However, I'm much more outraged with the judge's treatment of the affait than by the doctor's behaviour. The judge simply doesn't do his job properly by mistaking a judge's job and his political agenda He should be removed from the case, to let someone working with the law do the job.

	04-04-2004 21:54									#73
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I'm pro choice at the same time I believe the parents should make the choice life. Being pro choice does not actually mean that people are running screwing and constantly having abortions.

From the article the judge sounds biased. I would feel more comfortable if our judges were unbiased as much as possible. That's what they are paid for after all.

	04-04-2004 22:01									#74
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quote: The fact that it's guys deciding the fate of abortion. Why don't we turn this over to the women judges and decide? Sandra Day O'Connor would shoot this thing down in a second.

That makes no sense. (using a hyperbole here): Should only psychopaths judge psycopaths?

	04-04-2004 22:22									#75
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I think that the line of questioning in the last few paragraphs was misleading. I have yet to witness a doctor or nurse use terms analogous to "brain sucking" or "skull cracking" when describing any other medical procedure, and I don't know why they'd deviate from normal practice for an abortion. Would fewer women have partial-birth abortions if they were told that it would involve "sucking the brain from a fetus"? Probably. Would fewer people have spinal taps if they were told that it would involve "shoving a huge needle into their spinal cord and sucking out some spinal fluid"? Probably. Would fewer people have surgeries to repair a torn ACL if they were told that it would involve "slicing open your knee, butchering a nearby tendon, gouging out a path through the cartilege lining, and mangling the remnants of your ligament"? Probably. BFD. Given the order of questioning, the judge was probably just trying to put Johnson on the spot, so no harm, no foul.

	04-04-2004 22:24									#76
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quote: The judge needs to recuse himself from the case. If this were coming from the anti-abortion side of the case the tone and word-choice would be expected, but to have it come from a judge whose job it is is to be neutral and unbiased...

Yes, because if someone on the other side had just as pointed questions, you'd be calling for the same thing.

Sorry, he's an Appellate Court Judge. He's allowed to ask these questions and this would NEVER be cause for recusal. If this would be, then no judge would ever be able to rule on abortion.

	04-04-2004 22:27									#77
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quote: Sandra Day O'Connor would shoot this thing down in a second.

O'Connor wrote part of the opinion in Planned Parenthood v. Casey, which allows the federal government to place restrictions on abortion (such as 24 hour waiting periods, parental notification) and the banning of abortion after 'viability' was upheld. From all that I've seen O'Connor believes abortion should be banned after viability in the 3rd trimester.

	04-04-2004 23:00									#78
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quote: Originally posted by Lincoln Maybe we should rip the arms and legs from your body and see if you make a reference to amoeba's to justify your pain.

You admitted defeat then, as you offered no counterargument to my rebuttal. Might as well, as your original argument is completely fallacious.

	04-04-2004 23:01									#79
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Sorry, he's an Appellate Court Judge. He's allowed to ask these questions and this would NEVER be cause for recusal. If this would be, then no judge would ever be able to rule on abortion.

Mr Judge appears in urgent need of a refresher course in biology.

	05-04-2004 00:38									#80
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For record: I am pro-choice.

BUT:

Humans have one of the longest gestation periods (9 months) of any animal, and if it weren't for the fact that if the baby stayed in any longer it wouldn't fit thru the birth canal, we'd probably have a gestation period of more like 14 months. This is a fact.

What this means is that the human fetus is actually alot more mature and cogniscent of their surroundings than you might think. Picture the view from inside the whom, we think of it as being pitch black, but it actually resembles something like a sun room (so their visual skills are developing, AND they develop a concept of night and day - the most basic cosmology of any culture), at least during the day... just like when you put a flashlight against your hand it lights it up. Also, more importantly, babies can hear from inside the whom... we've known this for a while, but what we now know is that the socialization process begins before birth w/ more than just the mother but everyone who the mother has interacted with while pregnant. This is why its so important to speak calmly around pregnant mothers. Also, a babies brain will respond most favorably towards developing the language skills for the language which was spoken by the mother and/or father... because of conditioning during gestation. Blah Blah Blah. The point is, babies begin the learning process LONG before they are born. Its not like someone hits the "on" switch when its born and it suddenly starts living and learning.

I am pro-choice because I believe it is a woman's decision whether or not she wants an 8 pound object shoved through her birth canal - NOT because I believe the fetus is any "less human" than a born baby as biological fact simply doesn't support this.

I think other pro-choicers ought to make this disctinction as well.

Last edited by JimmyCracksCorn on 05-04-2004 at 00:46

	05-04-2004 02:37									#81
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quote: Humans have one of the longest gestation periods (9 months) of any animal

No, they don't. Horses have usually a longer one, for example.

	05-04-2004 03:10									#82
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He said "one of", didn't he?

	05-04-2004 03:15									#84
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Yes, because if someone on the other side had just as pointed questions, you'd be calling for the same thing. Sorry, he's an Appellate Court Judge. He's allowed to ask these questions and this would NEVER be cause for recusal. If this would be, then no judge would ever be able to rule on abortion.

Yes, I would. But how exactly would "the other side" use highly biased and inappropriate language? Remember, the issue here is the judge in the case using this language, not attourneys. Attourneys/lawyers are SUPPOSED to be biased for their side of the case...the judge isn't.

	05-04-2004 04:34									#85
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quote: But how exactly would "the other side" use highly biased and inappropriate language?

Look at some of the pro-abortion zealots on this side. They could call the anti-abortion people extremists, imply mysogyny etc, etc.

quote: Attourneys/lawyers are SUPPOSED to be biased for their side of the case...the judge isn't.

Why do you think there is always contention over who gets the pick the judges? You CAN'T be that naive, can you?

	05-04-2004 17:41									#86
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"This procedure can in theory be performed right up to the time the fetus would deliver normally"

OMG! I had no idea this was the case!

My position is based on 'detectable brain activity'.

Why do things have rights= because of sentience, not biology.

If a fetus is in the late stages of pregnancy where there is little difference between a baby then abortion is wrong.

The article is not clear on what stage of pregnancy these procedures cover.

	05-04-2004 19:08									#87
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A friend of mine was raised Catholic as a young boy.

When he was around 8, his mother was having a difficult childbirth.

The priest was on hand, and gave clear instructions to the doctor.

The child is innocent before God, and therefore more deserving of life. If you can only save one, save the child.

My friends father forcibly removed the priest from the scene, redirected the doctor, and removed the family from the Catholic Cult.

So what exactly are the motives of the fundies when analyzing the whole "late term abortion" debate?

	05-04-2004 19:09									#88
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By the way, my friend mother survived, but they lost the baby. Saving the baby would have killed his mother.

	05-04-2004 20:31									#89
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quote: Originally posted by The Mad Viking The priest was on hand, and gave clear instructions to the doctor. The child is innocent before God, and therefore more deserving of life. If you can only save one, save the child.

*******

Your friend did well

	05-04-2004 20:32									#90
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quote: Originally posted by The Mad Viking A friend of mine was raised Catholic as a young boy. When he was around 8, his mother was having a difficult childbirth. The priest was on hand, and gave clear instructions to the doctor. The child is innocent before God, and therefore more deserving of life. If you can only save one, save the child. My friends father forcibly removed the priest from the scene, redirected the doctor, and removed the family from the Catholic Cult. So what exactly are the motives of the fundies when analyzing the whole "late term abortion" debate?

That's odd - that priest was diametrically opposite the Catholic Church's postion on the issue.