06-04-2004 06:20									#121
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

I'm just glad I can bring joy to you! That's the only thing I hope to accomplosh4525545235 DURHGS DRUHGS ARE BAD@!@*#$(

	06-04-2004 06:23									#122
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui No, no... his continual whining is a sign of my successful troll

True enough.

	06-04-2004 17:03									#123
	Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by Sava but we're not talking about wahhabi whackjobs (although I'm sure they are against abortion too), we're talking about abortion. "anti-choice" when referring to abortion is the truest description of those people. They are against women having a choice about their own reproductive system. Those people certainly aren't "pro-life" because they most often believe in the death penalty and are pro-war when it comes to Iraq. There are some people that are truly pro-life, but those are like Buddhist monks who think it's wrong to step on ants. The abortion debate isn't about life or death. It's about whether or not a woman has a right to make choices about her own body. Plain and simple. The anti-choice people might say otherwise, but who cares? They are all hypocrits and religious whackjobs anyways.

It was an analogy. As long as you're lecturing Sky about open-mindedness, try looking at it from our perspective. To the Pro-lifer, there isn't much to distinguish terrorism from abortion except method and numbers. The aspect of "choice" is to us irrelevant. So it is not, repeat NOT, just about a woman's right to yadda yadda yadda, from our POV. And it's not all just religious posturing either.

And I am pro-life, dislike the death penalty, and think we have no business in Iraq. But I could be the arch-stereotypical conservative boogeyman you describe and still be Pro-Life, because the three issues are entirely distinct, and the label Pro-Life is commonly accepted as referring to one's stand on abortion. If "pro-life" is false because of the death penalty, then only Libertarians can be called "pro-choice."

And "hypocrite" has an E in it. Mak a not of it.
[/grumpy]

	06-04-2004 22:10									#124
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

I think the clearest way to frame it is either "pro- reproductive choice/anti- reproductive choice" or "pro- fetal rights/anti- fetal rights." I think they are equally valid, but one set is still weighted towards pro-choice politics, the other to pro-life politics.

Trying to agree on terminology is pointless, as each side will try to frame the debate in its own way. Witness the anti-war/pro-terrorism "debate."

	07-04-2004 13:10									#125
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: The point is, babies begin the learning process LONG before they are born. Its not like someone hits the "on" switch when its born and it suddenly starts living and learning.

Well said.

quote: I am pro-choice because I believe it is a woman's decision whether or not she wants an 8 pound object shoved through her birth canal - NOT because I believe the fetus is any "less human" than a born baby as biological fact simply doesn't support this.

So what happens during an abortion? they have to shove laminaria up the woman's cervix to dilate her in order to reach into her uterus, and stuff in a suction machine.

I don't see how giving birth would be any more intrusive than an abortion.

Secondly, what about a c-section? Birth need not go through the woman's cervix.

	07-04-2004 13:11									#126
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Interesting all the calls for the judge to recuse himself. Especially considering Justice Blackmun, and his recently released records that show his daughter was considering an abortion while he was deliberating on Roe.

Should Blackmun have recused himself from the case?

	07-04-2004 13:15									#127
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Mad Viking:

quote: The priest was on hand, and gave clear instructions to the doctor. The child is innocent before God, and therefore more deserving of life. If you can only save one, save the child.

First, not all fundies are Catholic. In fact, hardly any fundies are Catholic.

Secondly, this is contrary to the teachings of the Catholic church. While the child is valuable, abortion would be permissible in order to save the life of the mother, where the two are in conflict.

Most difficulties in pregnancy do not put the two in conflict, and can be resolved in other means.

edit:

And I see Skywalker has already made this point.

	07-04-2004 13:18									#128
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: the term "anti-choice" would still invoke a gut reaction. It's loaded language. So Pro-Life, Pro-Choice, let's play nice.

If we are anti-choice, then they are anti-life.

So we can play nice, or play hardball.