03-04-2004 14:52									#1
	Turn 192: 770 AD Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Save has just arrived... and for once I can play it immediately

Diplomatically, we're slacking though. CH, Sleepy, Arrian, could you please try to make sure our diplo stuff is done? We're still not sure about the deals with GoW - ND - Vox...

I'm opening the turn now, and will check if we have Medicine, and can start on SM.

DeepO

	03-04-2004 14:55									#2
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

We've got Medicine! Yohoo! So I'm going to accomplish what I set out to do: we will get ToE, without any doubt.

DeepO

	03-04-2004 16:41									#3
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Start
- GoW offers us Medicine for Steam accepted. We accept.
- Starting on SM. 80%, to be completed in 4 turns, 624 bpt, -57 gpt. (will change, I'm still before city build completions) I will try to find a perfect way to lose the least gold, by not wasting too much beakers (as I did with Electricity). Later.

- Cyclone builds worker. Starts worker
- Tempest builds bank. Starts The Oracle (prebuild for factory).
- SS builds worker. Starts workers
- WoC WLTKD stops, an extra 3 shields waste. IW now in 16, instead of 14.

- SM calculation: we need 2400 beakers. The best I can get is 3 turns on 80%, 1 turn on 70%, which will cost us 164 gold (we have 250). Other combinations will cost us a bit more gold. Not always much, but the perfect beaker combination (without any waste) of 2x90%, 1x70%, 1x60%, losing not a single beaker, will cost us 167 gold. Other combinations are worse. Slider set to 80%

- 36 workers

Moves
In general, the specific worker moves are not covered anymore, it gets too tedious. Only important stuff is mentioned.

- 6 workers improve Arashi 1. Recalculation... strange, I somehow missed 3 shields, ToE will end at 603 shields, instead of without loss. I could have RRed the tile 3 turns later... never mind, I can give the shields to another city to compensate.

- RR on Tempest 69, 23, 21.
- mine on Tempest 23, 21.
- RR on Monsoon 9
- RR on Hurricane 2, 21
- Mine on Hurricane 2 (should have been 21 to be ideal during mobilization. Oh well. We're not mobilizing yet)

- Galley2 moves 4444. Moves close to Antarctica, will do the missed tiles to the North on the way back. (starts on this next turn)
- our Southern most galley (off the Lego coast) Moves 222
- our Western most galleon moves 7886(? not sure anymore) to uncover some more fog. Spots another Lego picket: Victory. We can assume all of Lego is protected by pickets, so lets's return this galleon to Stormia as well.
- Northern most galley moves 223. Gow Galleon and Lego's caravel are still at the same spots. Out of sight after move.
- last Galleon (to the South of Stormia) moves 7776. Goes towards Elipolis, passing by ND's scouts (if any are present). Not a lot to do with this one, all fogged areas are going to be uncovered soon by other boats.

workforce shuffles
- Cyclone set back to ideal pattern (needs this every turn)
- Tempest gives one fp to EotS
- EotS frees irr plain for BB, using the fp.
- BB takes irr plain, instead of coast.

- WW moves off irr plain, gives it to Tempest.
- OG moves off irr (now mined) plain, gives it to Tempest.
The idea is that Tempest will grow next turn, and generate 24 shields, perfect for a factory prebuild in 10. Once Arashi finishes its ToE, it can swap tiles around a bit to give more shields to WW and OG. I miss one lousy shield, though, due to waste... next turn I plan to mine the last plain. RR is not necessary for the moment, but can be done to generate the last missing shield for the factory. Must remember this!

- Monsoon moves off incense hill, takes mountain instead. -1bpt
- WW moves off coast, onto incense hill. no bpt loss (if taking another hill instead of the incense, it would cost us 2bpt.
- OG moves off sea, to coast. +1 bpt.

- SS moves off mined plain, onto mountain.
- Hurricane uses the mined plain instead of a coast. -3bpt, +2spt. bpt loss has no influence on eta SM (those beakers would have gone to waste anyway). -1 fpt, but only for one turn, will be RRed next turn.

Current Builds

Changed all builds to the factory prebuilds, as layed out in the Smith's thread. This assumes we will go for industrialization after SM. Can be changed back everywhere later on.



Eli : Aqua in 3
Inchon : Aqua in 30
WoC : Iron Works in 16
Inchoff : market in 31
Diss : GLib in 21
Santa Ana : Uni in 24
Blizzard : Uni in 14
Monsoon : Uni in 5 (plan for Monsoon: now 1 turn on 11 spt, 0 fpt. Then 1 turn on +1 fpt (using hill instead of mountain). Then using 2 turns of -1fpt, 14 spt (using both hill and mountain) for perfect eta on Uni in 4))
Arashi : ToE in 4 via Palace
WW : Uni in 22
Tempest : Oracle in 15
SS: worker in 2
Hurricane : Hanging gardens in 16
OG : uni in 31
EotS : Hoover Dam in 14(via Sistine)
BB : uni in 13
Cyclone: worker in 1
Tornado : Uni in 8(bit of a problem, needs one turn delay to be ideal as prebuild.)
Typhoon : Uni in 23
Sufa : Uni in 35(might need market first, as it needs happiness. Depends on how fast Sufa can be RRed)

Other
- with the shuffling, we're at 620 bpt, -56 gpt at 80%.

- ND has Steam!!
Diplomatically, something should happen. I have no time whatsoever to do this, I've already worked something like 65 hours this week (deadline yesterday), and won't be in the rest of the day... We need at least to convince GoW this is not right.

- Vox has Steam as well... so right now, the only ones without coal are RP, as they need to wait until the NDA stop on Metallurgy.

- in our culture graph something strange is happening. GoW are definately gaining on us in culture. We're still gaining compared to the rest, but they are gaining more. There can only be one explanation: They have more cultural buildings then we do. Very strange for our warmongers

- we're still #2 in production. I wonder how long we can keep this, as others can start to RR too.

- turn sent

Next Turn

DeepO

	03-04-2004 20:00									#4
	Put an end to popups!

I have been slacking DeepO, I;ve been working long hours lately that have left me physically exhausted, very unfun work. And to boot, I will be gone from tomorrow through wednesday, helping my grandmother move (she lives a few states away)

I hope that ND got Steam from GoW, otherwise, they are breaking deals left and right with us. OTOH, didnt they front GoW cash for medicine + steam? WTF is going on with this game. Things are spiraling out of control!!!!!!!

	03-04-2004 20:19									#5
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No problem Sleepy, I can surely understand people being busy. However, our active group is shrinking to a point were there is no team left... I can't do the diplo stuff, I warned you beforehand my time is limited, and it surely has been this week.

As to ND and steam: GoW only receives it next turn, and ND already have it. They must have gotten it from Lego, accepted even (and so no unaccepted deal on which they offered something back). There is no doubt anymore, they are helping Lego a lot more then they are helping us.

As to the cash they have given GoW: That's exactly what we need to clear up. If they still assume we're going to give them 2 free techs for a bit of cash, they are mistaken... and it could turn sour very soon. ND is not a small party to deal with, perhaps we should consider taking them out before going after Lego. Or doing both of them at the same time.

DeepO

	03-04-2004 20:34									#6
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Its either one or the other, I would think it woudl have to be ND first, otherwise GoW would leave themselves horribly exposed. And we have to move soon, relatively, as we need to eviscerate ND before the advent of marines, as then we will need to defend our eastern coastline. the problem is, of course, Likely they are going for Rep Parts Asap, thus any move will be quite rough. Argh.

Did we not have an agreement with ND?

	03-04-2004 20:48									#7
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well... agreement... we had a chat some time ago, in which they only said 3 or 4 sentences. Nothing more then that. That's why I ask to clear up the mess, I'm totally unsure of what we agreed with GoW either.

Re: attacking ND: we simply can't do it with our current forces. They will have infs, also something to be sure of. So the only chance we get is racing towards tanks. If GoW cooperates, we can reach tanks faster then anyone else by at least 10 turns. We're already in front of everyone else by 7 turns, and will gain another 8 from the two free techs. That has to be enough...

the second invasion will become bloody as well, though, but maybe we can mask it with our war on ND.

Something else I've been thinking about: if we want, we can probably build Universal Suffrage. However, the shields would be better spend on other things... what if we 'give' it to GoW as payment for Medicine, or just as a act of good faith? We don't need it that much as they will, as we can switch to Monarchy in 1 turn. And it might be an extra incentive for them to gear for war.

DeepO

	03-04-2004 21:11									#8
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Unfortunately I think everyone's got hit by RL constraints simultaneously. I've been a bit confused about whats on the various tables, so it's been difficult to seize the initiative.

In my view :

1. We have no agreement with ND.
2. ND got Steam from Lego.
3. We didn't agree anything with GoW either.
4. We want to give GoW something anyway.

	03-04-2004 21:22									#9
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Clarification - we had no deal with ND over ToE - but only an informal agreement about Steam-Nationalism.

Informal agreements have worked with GoW, not with ND, so if ND come knocking thinking we owe them something, we can put them straight.

We can be generous to GoW, though. They as an ally are our only hope of do anything except watching whether ND try to win the game or not.

Thing is, is that World War (our only hope) is very labour-intensive, and if we don't have the active numbers available we can't pull it off. No-one wants to be defeatist but we have to be realistic. If ND weren't allied to Lego we'd have a chance, but we have to be honest about how much time and energy we could throw at a lost cause.

	03-04-2004 22:28									#10
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Seems we do owe ND something, a butt kicking. We can afford to wait till tanks and then go for it. If we can get GoW in, then fine.

By that time it will be clear that we are being beaten and will have nothing to lose, unless a better offer comes along.

	05-04-2004 03:58									#11
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 Seems we do owe ND something, a butt kicking. We can afford to wait till tanks and then go for it. If we can get GoW in, then fine. By that time it will be clear that we are being beaten and will have nothing to lose, unless a better offer comes along.

I mentioned this to MZ (see log ).

I also mentioned tech. They have started Sanitation, and intend on Rep Parts after that. I don't know where Electricity would fit in, perhaps we could give it them, and we then go for Industrialisation.

	05-04-2004 04:20									#12
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

good chat, CH. Not too clear on the techs, but that's okay... Indus. for us seems the only choice. Oh, ND and Lego getting ahead in tech is not possible, if we and GoW work together, at least not before tanks. However, it might require that GoW stops trading techs to ND... something they will not easily do.

DeepO

	05-04-2004 04:59									#13
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

I just don't see many scenarios that make sense for ND. The only thing I can come up with is they just want to stick it to us more than they want to win. They could be playing to come in second, rather than lower. Either that or they are just stupid.