04-04-2004 05:00									#31
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I see. If a black person disagrees with you politically, and serves a Republican, then there is something wrong with them, right?

I mean, it's only common sense that all black people would disagree with Bush, right?

I'm not sure how much better such thinking is over what has gone on in the past.

	04-04-2004 05:49									#32
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quote: Given that Saddam acted as if he were hiding them,

Granted, he wasn't really appearing to cooperate, but

quote: Feb. 14, 2003 In a report to the UN, Hans Blix indicates progress has been made in Iraq 's cooperation.

quote: March 7, 2003 Hans Blix reports Iraq has accelerated its cooperation, but inspectors need more time to verify Iraq 's compliance.

http://www.afsc.org/iraq/guide/war-timeline.htm

	04-04-2004 06:04									#33
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither I mean, it's only common sense that all black people would disagree with Bush, right?.

Actually, yes.

The Republicans attempts to pander to black people are hilarious, given their policies.

I think it was Bill Maher who said of the 2000 Republican convention, that the last time republicans had had that many black people on a stage, they were selling them.

	04-04-2004 06:06									#34
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I think it was Chris Rock (it was for Maher's Politically Incorrect, though).

	04-04-2004 07:56									#35
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The way things have developed the question to be asked is, if there is a madman in the Whitehouse, and not if his henchmen are lying or not.

	04-04-2004 11:08									#36
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Interesting how we went from discussing Powell to the patronizing racism of Agathon.

	04-04-2004 11:10									#37
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon Actually, yes. The Republicans attempts to pander to black people are hilarious, given their policies. I think it was Bill Maher who said of the 2000 Republican convention, that the last time republicans had had that many black people on a stage, they were selling them.

I'm sure black people everywhere are relieved that they have people like you looking out for them and telling them what they should think.

But hey, you've got a couple of entertainers to quote. I'll bet the world would be doomed to a calamity if it were not for their contributions to sociology and political science.

	04-04-2004 11:52									#38
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Agathon are you even aware that the Republican party was the primary abolishionist party in the 19th century?

	04-04-2004 12:47									#39
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Ok so.......this would be tantamount to him saying basically that everything was wrong. Meaning we were wrong to go to Iraq in the first place?

And again would this not in some instance put egg on Bush's face. Hello.....if your secretary of state is admitting this.......well

	04-04-2004 16:22									#40
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Agathon,
Have heart. A lot of blacks view C. Rice and C. Powell as uncle toms, sellouts, and etc. Rice more than Powell. Your embedded analysis of African American public opinion is right on.

Powell lost a little credibility with the black community when he opted for the Republican party vice democrats. It's a common fact that most blacks are expected to be or vote democrat. Still he lost only a little credibility. Most of his loss of face has been after joining the President in the whitehouse. Namely for the reasons stated above. It seems that his reputation as an honest broker has been used to peddle some questionable policies. A lot of people look at the things that are being said and wonder how anyone could believe them regardless of race, creed, sex, religion, or even party.

	04-04-2004 21:40									#41
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quote: Agathon are you even aware that the Republican party was the primary abolishionist party in the 19th century?

I'm sure he is. But Republicans today, would have been rabid Democrats in the 19th century. (And vice-versa). So...well...it was a funny joke at least.

	04-04-2004 22:43									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Big Crunch Yes you did. I'm talking about the evidence that the Bush admin (and others) provided. It wasn't convincing evidence to many people.

Some folks would never be happy with any American evidence. We have rabid anti-Americans here as well. Not a group I can identify with. The evidence presented, IF TRUE, was convincing - hence the war.

quote: Forget what Saddam may or may not have said, have you no ability to critically evaluate what you are told by a government?

Absolutely, when I can personally examine the evidence.

quote: In the minds of many the Bush admin never proved their case. That is the important point. The fact that he was 'proven' to be lying after the war, just re-iterates the point.

See anti-Americanism point above. If Bush said the sun rises in the east many would challenge him on it.

quote: I'm not questioning whether it was right or not, I just feel your justification seemed a bit weak. If you said you had listened to the arguments and agreed with them, that would be understandable, but you seem to be saying you are a headless chicken who just follows the guy in charge because he wouldn't lie.

Headless chicken? Called a lefty yesterday. Guess I could (and have) been called worse. Not being defensive - but most people I know would strongly disagree with that observation.

Perhaps you misunderstand. I DID listen to the arguments and evaluate. I didn't have my hands on the Niger file, CIA reports, National Security briefings, etc. Did you?

In the end it was a question of credibility. Hence my disappointment with the Admin now.

	04-04-2004 23:04									#43
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quote: Somehow, I doubt a majority of Americans would share your feelings.

Yes, I doubt a vast majority of Americans share those feelings. My respect for him hasn't waned at all. And overall, it matters less what the black community thinks than what the white community thinks of him, because whites are the majority. He never was never hired because he was a bridge to the black community. Neither Rice.

I view this whole thing as an error of the intelligence community. There was no intermediation between the Powell and the career civil servants in the intelligence community, so he only said what the intelligence community thought to be the truth. As the president, it's tough to say to the intelligence community to clean up its act, because they can give just as well as they can take, and they do a lot of very good work otherwise.

It would have been stupid for the Bush administration to lie, and I don't believe they did so, precisely because you would be in the situation they have now.

	05-04-2004 00:12									#44
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quote: It would have been stupid for the Bush administration to lie, and I don't believe they did so, precisely because you would be in the situation they have now.

If you see a hundred dollar bill on the ground, Dan, pick it up. It isn't an illusion.

	05-04-2004 00:23									#45
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quote: Originally posted by Pax Africanus Agathon, Have heart. A lot of blacks view C. Rice and C. Powell as uncle toms, sellouts, and etc.

Is there somesort of test that one has to go through in order to be accepted as black? A ritual of purification to cast out the demons of whiteness?

	05-04-2004 00:32									#46
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As a black person the more successful you are the more you run the risk of being accused of selling out. I would say that blacks put more pressure on each other to "act black" than any outside group. In the case of Powell and Rice the perception is that they are not doing anything to support their "people". That they shun the "black" political power groups and the groups that would help blacks advance in american society. That they do not attend "black" social political events. To put it mildly. Is the perception reality? I do not know. I do know that there political viewpoints are totally different from my own having nothing to do with whether or not they are sell outs.

	05-04-2004 01:11									#47
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quote: Originally posted by Pax Africanus As a black person the more successful you are the more you run the risk of being accused of selling out.

So only unsucessful people can lay claim to being black? I understand now.

	05-04-2004 01:15									#48
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No, DD, you clearly don't. Pax said "run the risk." The point is that it is easier to notice when a rich or famous black person is not supporting his or her community.

	05-04-2004 01:22									#49
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When exactly would a National Security advisor have cause to support her "community"? As for Powell I fail to see how the founder of a large public service organization can be acused of not helping this mythical community.

As I said earlier, this "acting black" crap stinks of nothing more than patronizing racisim and shock over the fact that someone from an oppressed community might disagree with your views.

	05-04-2004 01:26									#50
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Again, you fail to see the point. You asked how it is that some people can be perceived of as not being "black" enough. So you don't like the answer. Good for you.

	05-04-2004 01:28									#51
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I'm trying to understand the mindset of such people. Nothing posted here has disabused my of my opinion of them thus far.

	05-04-2004 02:18									#52
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quote: It would have been stupid for the Bush administration to lie, and I don't believe they did so, precisely because you would be in the situation they have now.

But they did lie. That much is obvious. They as much as admit it. We clearly had no fear of Iraq's weapons. We invaded as part of a strategy to disrupt terrorism in Iran and Syria.

In other words we wanted to invade Iraq for reasons other than violations of the armistice. So we lied about violations as a pretext for invasion. That's what Bush's comment about "denying safe refuge to terrorists" means.

Ultimately I agree with you. They would have been stupid to lie about it. Since they did lie about it, our conclusion is easy.

The Bush administration is stupid.

	05-04-2004 02:25									#53
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Your second reply is no more worthy of a response from me than your first. Sorry.

	05-04-2004 02:25									#54
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DD,
It's a genral mindset of a large group of people all over the U.S. My experience is that I have personally been ridiculed on a regular basis for sounding white or proper when I talk to people. I don't let my black friends know I listen to groups like New Order, The Cure, The Smiths, White Stripes, The Rolling Stones, and etc. I don't do certain things around or with them.

I don't know if you can call it racism or what but black people certainly expect you to fit into a certain mold. I think that all of society is like that. We expect boys to certain things. We expect girls to do certain things and blacks expect each other to "act black"
I can only say that things are changing as the black culture further integrates into mainstream american but until that day...

	05-04-2004 02:33									#55
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DanS,
More and More information is coming out that the war with Iraq was planned prior to 9/11.

	05-04-2004 02:35									#56
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On 9/11 "smart sanctions" were the new policy wrt Iraq. Quite a bit more low-key than war preparations, I bet you would agree.

	05-04-2004 02:39									#57
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Pax, there really is that much pressure to conform? Is that a good thing?

If there is, then is it right or wrong for people like Rice and Powell to act as if they are not going to particpate in that game?

Were I to see some caucasian kids on the street dressed 'funny' and listening to hip hop, what do you think would be the reaction to me if I were to tell them to 'act white'?

What do we say about public figures who speak out about things that 'debase' 'white culture'.

Is bigotry only offensive in a white person?

	05-04-2004 02:49									#58
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quote: Originally posted by DanS Yes, I doubt a vast majority of Americans share those feelings. My respect for him hasn't waned at all. And overall, it matters less what the black community thinks than what the white community thinks of him, because whites are the majority. He never was never hired because he was a bridge to the black community. Neither Rice.

Of all members of the Bush administration, my respect for Powell is still the biggest one (duh, for the others my respect is zero), but I consider his reputation tarnished. True, his performance in the UNSC would probably not affect his chances, would he agree to be a presidental candidate. Nevertheless I think, he would be a bad president even in this hypothetical case. Bushs successor will have to stop the decay of the western alliance. Any member of this administration would fail.

I won't jump into the black/white discussion.

quote: I view this whole thing as an error of the intelligence community. There was no intermediation between the Powell and the career civil servants in the intelligence community, so he only said what the intelligence community thought to be the truth. As the president, it's tough to say to the intelligence community to clean up its act, because they can give just as well as they can take, and they do a lot of very good work otherwise.

It's a smart move to dump the error at the intelligence services. They're such convenient scapegoats, especially since nobody can check the facts and the press is largely out. So everyone is free to believe, that it's their fault or not, but if not, he can't prove it because he doesn't have access to the data.

quote: It would have been stupid for the Bush administration to lie, and I don't believe they did so, precisely because you would be in the situation they have now.

It would be stupid to lie, hence he didn't lie... that's kind of a flawed logic. People do stupid things. May be Powell wouldn't, but he's not the boss.

Anyway, who has seen Powells performance in the UNSC could see even with little knowledge of human nature, that Powell is lying, or more precise, that he cites facts, the truth of which he doesn't believe. He looked so uncomfortable, that even I pitied him. He's a good, honest guy by nature, but such a bad liar. I thought that is the most important trait of any politician.

	05-04-2004 02:57									#59
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Re: Black/white discussion:
Saying some common almost-truths isn't "patronizing racism". It isn't racist to say that white people have no rythm, nor is it racist to say all blacks are Democrats, because in both cases there is no racist intent and it isn't insulting. (In fact, IIRC Dims have a huge African-American lead over Repugs. Something like 8 to 1).

Now, if Colin and Condie don't act like a black stereotype would, then it's okay to note it. It's not okay to hate them because of it, though, and I don't think anyone does that (but I only skimmed this thread).

re: Powell's reputation...
I still hold respect for Powell. I don't think he would have trumpeted weapons evidence--especially if he knew it was false--without pressure from fellow administration...

I hold the most respect for him out of anyone in the Bush administation, because, like Sir Ralph, my respect for the others is zero. Nil. Zilch. Inexistent.

	05-04-2004 03:01									#60
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His reputation might have been tarnished, but largely overseas. Here at home, I don't think his reputation is tarnished. True, his reputation overseas does impact how effective he is at his job, since he is the secretary of state.

As to the western alliance, France, Germany, Belgium and Greece need to do their part to "heal" to western alliance. I have my doubts as to whether they have much interest in the alliance. Well, at least I doubt France has much interest in the alliance.

Regarding the intelligence community, Bush hasn't dumped the failures on the intelligence services. Neither has Powell. They both know better. The only skirmishes I have seen are the intelligence community giving a warning shot to the administration (and specifically Cheney) over the Niger uranium issue. Powell may be starting down the path of blaming the intelligence community, but probably not.