14-04-2004 00:22									#151
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Black+White was a strange one, i only played a demo thingie(given free on a game mag coverdisk).

It won many magazine awards, and got good percentages all around.

Still i dont know any players who said they really loved it - mostly they gave luke warm feedback about it, so i never got it. Still i'm hoping the experience gained from B+W will stand Fable in good stead - it will most likely be my next xbox purchase.

I'm sort of getting a bit sad at games that resort to lots of violence to sell the product, i think it could be having a bad effect on the 'yof' of today, much like violent films etc might do.

So i've held of getting the latest GTA, until i'm sure its not just a violence-whore for the sake of it

	14-04-2004 01:39									#152
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B&W was all hype. It contains as much interesting gameplay as the Sims. That's quite low.

	14-04-2004 04:04									#153
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Not, it contained less. At least with the Sims you could set yourself challenges like "Only live on money from selling paintings" or "control a house of 8 people at once - who only live on money from selling paintings".

What, I like making them paint. It increases their creativity. I think I need to paint more.

	14-04-2004 05:43									#154
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quote: If the "funpart" is when you've filled up all the land and no longer have anything to do, then yes, you're right.

You can always start a new city if you find that part not fun .

But it is always fun updating your city when you've filled everyone. Add highways and arcologies in old parts of the city.

	14-04-2004 05:53									#155
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: If the "funpart" is when you've filled up all the land and no longer have anything to do, then yes, you're right. You can always start a new city if you find that part not fun .

Or you can just buy Sim City 4 and be faced with somewhat of a challange.

	14-04-2004 06:39									#156
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quote: Still i dont know any players who said they really loved it - mostly they gave luke warm feedback about it, so i never got it. Still i'm hoping the experience gained from B+W will stand Fable in good stead - it will most likely be my next xbox purchase.

I heard th ta they stopped rpoduction on that. The rumors about ti were amazing. Can you really get haircuts and scars, and suntans in it?

	14-04-2004 06:41									#157
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quote: B&W was all hype. It contains as much interesting gameplay as the Sims. That's quite low.

I think it really comes down to the percent of the population that will find the game interesting. So in reality, you have a much smaller percentage chance of being totally caught up in the gaem. But I heard that B&W has a 24 hr tutorial or something. I looked really cool, but I never really got it, due to the lukewarm feedback.
The Sims however, became my opiate of choice. Then it got boring, and I was tortured, b/c I lost my AOE2 disk.

	14-04-2004 06:43									#158
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quote: You can always start a new city if you find that part not fun . But it is always fun updating your city when you've filled everyone. Add highways and arcologies in old parts of the city.

I must say, that personally I always found the climb to the top to be far more entertaining than plateauing off. That was my greatest source of vexation in Ceasar 3, the maps always filled up waaay too fast for me, and I, like any good empire builder, just wanted to keep expanding.

	14-04-2004 06:44									#159
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quote: Or you can just buy Sim City 4 and be faced with somewhat of a challange.

Is htere much more htat they can add to those games? It seems to me, that there is only so much you cna cover, and they seem to have already covered a lot of it.

	14-04-2004 09:58									#160
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quote: Or you can just buy Sim City 4 and be faced with somewhat of a challange.

Or be frustrated by the 'challenge' which is more work than fun. I have a job if I want to work, I don't need my computer games to also have it .

	14-04-2004 09:59									#161
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what kind of work is that?

	14-04-2004 10:26									#162
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My job or playing SimCity4?

	14-04-2004 11:28									#163
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both.

How can a game be work?

	14-04-2004 14:04									#164
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So the only way Sim games can be made good is by adding layers of complexity that scares/bores some players. Therefore the genre is forever bouncing between simplistic mindlessness and micromanaging hell.

	14-04-2004 15:48									#165
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quote: Originally posted by DrSpike So the only way Sim games can be made good is by adding layers of complexity that scares/bores some players. Therefore the genre is forever bouncing between simplistic mindlessness and micromanaging hell.

It's not micromanaging hell, it's just basic strategy elements. Imran just wants a big sandbox where he can do anything he wants without having to worry about money or good city planning.

	14-04-2004 16:20									#166
	Put an end to popups!

I said some players. Personally I think if the genre is ever to be anything other than mindless pap it needs some of the depth that you like and Imran doesn't.

I don't really have any objection to the more intricate Sim style games........they aren't a personal favourite for many of Imran's reasons ironically, but at least they are not Sunday gamer oriented.

	14-04-2004 17:56									#167
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quote: How can a game be work?

If it has too much 'stuff'. Micromanaging Hell is work. This is why I don't like playing games like 'Capitalism'. A bit of micromanagment, or even options for micromanagment (sometimes I'll micromanage in a while in Civ2) would prevent certain games from feeling more like a chore.

quote: Imran just wants a big sandbox where he can do anything he wants without having to worry about money or good city planning.

Yeah, because that is EXACTLY what SimCity2 was .

SC2 worked because it hit the right balance between macro and micro managment. SC4 has turned too far to the micro and has become, work.

	14-04-2004 19:09									#168
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quote: Originally posted by DrSpike So the only way Sim games can be made good is by adding layers of complexity that scares/bores some players. Therefore the genre is forever bouncing between simplistic mindlessness and micromanaging hell.

Isnt that to a great extent true of most strategy games?? There are some that are elegant and achieve strategic depth while remaining relatively abstract, but these are fairly few.

Heck, even some of the favorite RPG's around here have a huge amount of micromanagement.

	14-04-2004 19:12									#169
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: How can a game be work? If it has too much 'stuff'. Micromanaging Hell is work.

Arent you one of the folks who really liked SMAC?? I found SMAC almost as bad for micromanagement as Caesar 3. At least when im roleplaying a Roman governor/mayor (the game really does get the structure of roman local govt totally WRONG) I expect micromanagement - when im running an empire on a distant planet i dont. Maybe i just never got far enough up the learning curve to trust using the SMAC governors, etc.

	14-04-2004 21:53									#170
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark Isnt that to a great extent true of most strategy games?? There are some that are elegant and achieve strategic depth while remaining relatively abstract, but these are fairly few. Heck, even some of the favorite RPG's around here have a huge amount of micromanagement.

To an large extent you are correct. I lean more towards accepting the micro if there is a good depth/micro ratio (TM).

	15-04-2004 04:35									#171
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quote: Arent you one of the folks who really liked SMAC?? I found SMAC almost as bad for micromanagement as Caesar 3.

I found SMAC to not be that bad on micromanagment at all. I normally didn't do much 'customizing' of units, and played it much like Civ.

quote: hen im roleplaying a Roman governor/mayor (the game really does get the structure of roman local govt totally WRONG) I expect micromanagement

Why? If I'm a Roman governor I expect the city planner to give me ideas which I reject or approve?

quote: when im running an empire on a distant planet i dont.

If you look at the story, I'd imagine all the faction leaders were egomaniacal perfectionists.

	15-04-2004 18:35									#172
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: Arent you one of the folks who really liked SMAC?? I found SMAC almost as bad for micromanagement as Caesar 3. I found SMAC to not be that bad on micromanagment at all. I normally didn't do much 'customizing' of units, and played it much like Civ. OK. It still seems like it had more micromanagement than Civ, but you may be right. quote: hen im roleplaying a Roman governor/mayor (the game really does get the structure of roman local govt totally WRONG) I expect micromanagement Why? If I'm a Roman governor I expect the city planner to give me ideas which I reject or approve? Well a real Roman governor ran a province, and left municipal issues to the local authorities, who were typically local notables serving for the honor and influence. In caesar 3 you're more like a mayor, which is a fiction (or an abstraction for the local notables). However taking this fiction, it makes sense that I will do micromanagement. Yeah, I suppose advisors (like in Simcity) would make sense, but then in Simcity they dont help you with actual layout decisions. And I suppose one could make the case that there WERE NO technical advisors - if there were Mayors, theyd be laying out blocks themselves. Certainly provincial governors got into some surprising minutae. quote: when im running an empire on a distant planet i dont. If you look at the story, I'd imagine all the faction leaders were egomaniacal perfectionists.

I suppose one could justify the micromanagement on that basis. All egomanial to be sure, but obsessive micromanagers?? Mebbe, mebbe.

	17-04-2004 07:53									#173
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MMORPGs.
RPGs
99.8% of Single player games

	17-04-2004 08:57									#174
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You just named my favourite type of games.

	17-04-2004 12:12									#175
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has no one mentioned civ2 yet?

	17-04-2004 12:32									#176
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A popular game for which I have no respect at all?

gotta be Quake 3. Most overrated crap that has ever wandered the PC. Quake 3 is not a game, it is a mere graphic engine sold as a game. It is inferior in all regards to UT, except for graphics. I have never understood why the fanboys sticked to it

	17-04-2004 14:52									#177
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Because it's the best old style deathmatch game bar none, even almost 5 years after its release, that's why. Since this game is only MP (well you can use bots, but that blows) one can only really rate it on MP. Within the FPS community most hardcore players think of UT as a noobs game.

The various incarnations of UT are better SP games, but MP? No way.

	17-04-2004 15:03									#178
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Now...... 3D Monster Maze, there was a game

	18-04-2004 01:20									#179
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor A popular game for which I have no respect at all? gotta be Quake 3. Most overrated crap that has ever wandered the PC. Quake 3 is not a game, it is a mere graphic engine sold as a game. It is inferior in all regards to UT, except for graphics. I have never understood why the fanboys sticked to it

w00t!

Like Doc Spike said... Quake Deathmatch is the Best MP FPS mode ever. Whats wrong with revison of crappy MP mode that is Quake 2? Quake 3 achieved what Quake 2 couldnt, which is to retain the superb gameplay that was on q1 MP.

UT is good in its own way, Quake is god in its own way...
Its like comparing marvel VS capcom with Virtua fighter...

quote: You just named my favourite type of games.

Oh well, go enjoy them.

btw, dont invite me over to your house to play games then.

	18-04-2004 02:49									#180
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I've never tried Quake 1, but one thing is for sure: Quake 2 is much better than Quake 3... I think I've only played Q3 for a short time before I got tired of playing, while I've considered installing Q2 again... but I doubt it'll happen now that UT2k4 has been released...