05-04-2004 06:56									#31
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quote: In fact, it's not so much an issue of whether abortion's should be legal - the issue is that the courts took a stance that far surpassed most of the laws in the country. This meant that instead of popular opinon gradually moving toward a consensus (even if each state was different) we have a polarized issue that probably won't be decided for a very long time.

I agree with this sentiment. I wonder what it would have looked like if there was gradual change on the issue.

	05-04-2004 06:57									#32
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I just don't understand why the unborn offspring of endangered species are protected, but not a human fetus.

	05-04-2004 08:52									#33
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Fine, the potential offspring of endangered species should not be protected until it is actually born and becomes a member of the endangered species. Happy?

	05-04-2004 08:53									#34
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Well that would at least be consistent so I bet he'd approve .

	05-04-2004 09:20									#35
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Women are of the inferior gender, and thus, women have no rights that United States law is bound to respect.

	05-04-2004 10:49									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui I agree with this sentiment. I wonder what it would have looked like if there was gradual change on the issue.

It would be totally illegal in 38+ states probably.

	05-04-2004 10:55									#37
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So conservatives will kill a criminal, but not something whose actual status of life can not be proven?

	05-04-2004 11:01									#38
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara It would be totally illegal in 38+ states probably.

Oh bullshit che. It's this type of idiotic banter that serves to poison debates like the one Imran was trying to start. Anyway your statement flies in the face of the trends in state legistlatures in the years before Roe.

	05-04-2004 11:04									#39
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SO his number is a little bit off, but I think it would be legal in a couple states. Oregon maybe?

	05-04-2004 11:10									#40
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quote: Originally posted by bipolarbear SO his number is a little bit off, but I think it would be legal in a couple states. Oregon maybe?

In the five years before the court suddenly discovered in the constitution a virtually unlimited right to abortion, 16 states, with 41 percent of the nation's population — including then-Governor Reagan's California — liberalized their abortion laws. The state legislatures were doing what legislatures are supposed to do in a democracy: They were debating and revising laws to reflect changing community thinking.

The Court decided to change that by telling the people to sit down, shut up, and end the abortion deabte. It only served to needlessly radicalize the deabte and diminish American democracy.

	05-04-2004 13:37									#41
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I agree. It seems that Southern states have a penchant for anti-abortion legislation spouting stuff like "Respect all life", "Choose life", etc but they are the same states that are the first to execute ppl.

Hypocrisy at it's finest.

If you don't got the equipment, you shouldn't make the decisions. Simple as that.

<-----Pro-choice.

	05-04-2004 16:29									#42
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quote: the State of South Dakota has a compelling and paramount interest in the preservation and protection of all human life and finds that the guarantee of due process of law under the South Dakota Bill of Rights applies equally to born and unborn human beings

Umm...due process was not about how private citizens interact with each other or with the unborn, it's about how private citizens interact with the state when charged with a crime. Due process could only apply if the state was aborting the unborn...

quote: The bill includes no exception for rape or incest victims, but does allow an exception for the life of the mother and for a pregnancy that poses a “serious risk of substantial and irreversible impairment of a major bodily function” to the mother.

So if someone threatens me with bodily harm if I don't kill you, killing you becomes justified? If abortion is murder, then it can't be justified. But if a fertilized egg is a human being with the same right to life as everyone else, will the state prosecute women who have spontaneous abortions? I mean, sure, it's "an act of god", but won't there have to be investigations to make sure the abortion wasn't induced by humans?

	05-04-2004 17:43									#43
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This bill makes me so happy to have spent three years of my life there!

	05-04-2004 18:13									#44
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for the effort. This is the one case where conservatives have a real point about "activist judges."

	05-04-2004 19:03									#45
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quote: Originally posted by boann ... that the life of a human being begins when the ovum is fertilized by male sperm

[Before I say anything at all, let me state for the record, that I am pro-abortion (in the appropriate circumstances)]

Boann: when would you define human life to begin? Would you be pro or anti abortions performed after this date?

	05-04-2004 19:10									#46
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quote: Originally posted by Verto I just don't understand why the unborn offspring of endangered species are protected, but not a human fetus.

Humans aren't an endangered species.

	05-04-2004 20:27									#47
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quote: Originally posted by Frankychan I agree. It seems that Southern states have a penchant for anti-abortion legislation spouting stuff like "Respect all life", "Choose life", etc but they are the same states that are the first to execute ppl. Hypocrisy at it's finest.

Not hypocrisy at all. The fetus isn't guilty of anything, those criminals are.

quote: If you don't got the equipment, you shouldn't make the decisions. Simple as that. <-----Pro-choice.

For the gazillionth time, if the fetus is a person, then it has those rights. You're argument is STUPID because it completely MISSES the thrust of the anti-abortion argument.

	05-04-2004 20:28									#48
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quote: Originally posted by loinburger Humans aren't an endangered species.

So? Why are those endangered species MORE important than people?

	05-04-2004 20:41									#49
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quote: Originally posted by Felch I don't care about abortion, being a guy and already born, but I don't like the idea of judges creating laws out of their asses. Folks act as though first trimester abortions were mentioned in the Constitution or something. This is an issue that should be left for the state's and their governments to decide. And I am not going anywhere near South Dakota.

One of the problems the Roe v. Wade Court faced was that the state leglislatures perpetually failed to do their job and tackle this issue. When an action is brought before the court, it doesn't have the freedom to abstain.

The most worrisome part of this law for pro-choice people is the Leglislature saying life begins at conception. If that legislative finding can pass constitutional scrutiny (& I can't see why it wouldn't), then the factual basis of the Roe v. Wade decision falls.

Practical effect: South Dakota women go to North Dakota to get abortions.

	05-04-2004 21:32									#50
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quote: Originally posted by loinburger Humans aren't an endangered species.

Well there's that big comet that says otherwise.

	05-04-2004 21:35									#51
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quote: In the five years before the court suddenly discovered in the constitution a virtually unlimited right to abortion, 16 states, with 41 percent of the nation's population — including then-Governor Reagan's California — liberalized their abortion laws. The state legislatures were doing what legislatures are supposed to do in a democracy: They were debating and revising laws to reflect changing community thinking.

Indeed. Che's blanket assertion doesn't take into account the facts (as usual, might I add ). There was gradual change in the states. Slow, yes. But it was moving. So to say one way or the other what would have occured is ignorant. We can't know what course it would have taken.

quote: When an action is brought before the court, it doesn't have the freedom to abstain.

It can refuse cert .

quote: If that legislative finding can pass constitutional scrutiny (& I can't see why it wouldn't), then the factual basis of the Roe v. Wade decision falls.

That's the point, I think. This law has specifically been passed for a Constitutional challenge to Roe.

	05-04-2004 21:42									#52
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quote: Originally posted by Kucinich So? Why are those endangered species MORE important than people?

What do you mean? It's not as though a human dies every time a bald eagle is born, so, in the absence of a zero-sum game situation, I don't see how laws intended to preserve endangered species imply that these endangered species are more important than the human species.

quote: Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe Well there's that big comet that says otherwise.

True, but it's unlikely that the comet will be averted by an increased birth rate among humans, unless we start firing people at it, in which case we really should be increasing the number of obese people and not just the number of people overall.

	05-04-2004 21:47									#53
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quote: Originally posted by loinburger What do you mean? It's not as though a human dies every time a bald eagle is born, so, in the absence of a zero-sum game situation, I don't see how laws intended to preserve endangered species imply that these endangered species are more important than the human species.

If there is not a corresponding law for humans, than it says that you are willing to go further to protect the endangered species than humans.

	05-04-2004 21:49									#54
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quote: Originally posted by Kucinich If there is not a corresponding law for humans, than it says that you are willing to go further to protect the endangered species than humans.

No, it says that the human species does not require the same protections as the endangered species, because humans are not endangered. In terms of survival of the species, abortion is a non-issue -- humans are reproducing just fine as it is.

	05-04-2004 21:53									#55
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quote: No, it says that the human species does not require the same protections as the endangered species, because humans are not endangered. In terms of survival of the species, abortion is a non-issue -- humans are reproducing just fine as it is.

Exactly - you value human fetuses less than the fetuses of other animals, because humans aren't endangered.

	05-04-2004 21:59									#56
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quote: Originally posted by Kucinich Exactly - you value human fetuses less than the fetuses of other animals, because humans aren't endangered.

The marginal utility of a fetus of an endangered species (not "other animals," but "endangered animals") as it relates to the survival of that species as a whole is far greater than the marginal utility of a human fetus as it relates to the survival of the human species as a whole. If you want to apply loaded terms like "values," then hey, whatever floats your boat.

	05-04-2004 22:06									#57
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It is a crime to kill a member of an endanger species. That would mean the Death Penalty is proof we value endangered animals more.

Your point Sky?

	05-04-2004 22:09									#58
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quote: Originally posted by loinburger True, but it's unlikely that the comet will be averted by an increased birth rate among humans, unless we start firing people at it, in which case we really should be increasing the number of obese people and not just the number of people overall.

The US does its part.

Thank God for MacDonalds. Saving mankind is all in a days work.

	06-04-2004 02:26									#59
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quote: Originally posted by Kucinich For the gazillionth time, if the fetus is a person, then it has those rights. You're argument is STUPID because it completely MISSES the thrust of the anti-abortion argument.

That's an awfully big 'IF'. How do you know whether or not the fetus is a 'person'? What gives you the right to declare it as one or not?

	06-04-2004 04:10									#60
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quote: Originally posted by Rogan Josh That's an awfully big 'IF'. How do you know whether or not the fetus is a 'person'? What gives you the right to declare it as one or not?

What gives *you* the right to declare it as one or not? The issue must be decided one way or another. The Pro-choice movement just brushes it aside to talk about knocked-up crackhead teenagers who got raped and had to drop out of high school and now Mean Ol' Mr. Conservative is laughing at his diabolical scheme to make them cry while he bites the heads off of fluffy lil' bunny rabbits and so on and so forth. It's very sad, no doubt, but not directly related to the abortion argument-certainly not as much as "is it human," anyway.