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Case
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The backlash starts here
Feb 2000
time: 15:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Exile
Btw, does anyone know whether a giga map of maximum size can be all ocean? |
AFAIK, you'll need to give each side a city for the scenario to be playable.
BTW, as a word of advice, it would probably be best to forget any plans you may have for this scenario to be playable against the AI. Among it's many flaws, the AI doesn't 'do' naval combat well, especially if you're planning on using 'shell' missiles.
As an aside, I recall that there was a project to do a Jutland scenario a few years ago (ie, 2000 or early 2001). A couple of naval geeks obsessed over it for a few months, appeared to have the time of their lives testing bits of it to death, and then the whole project disappeared suddenly.
I suspect that one of them found a girlfriend 
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GePap
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of the Big Apple
Nov 2001
time: 23:17
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IN the scenerio, will ships actually fight each other, or will tey trade shots with misisle, air units serving as shells? Each ship could begin with 8 shells, obviously you get the 15 inch, 14 inch, 12 inch, 8 inch, 6 inch, and perhaps torpedoes also.
Make all the ships carriers, give them high defense and HP, and no attack by themselves, so that ships have to trade shots over distance. This way the BB's can fire at each other at distance, while smaller ships
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Exile
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of the Benighted Realms
Sep 2000
time: 23:17
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Fairline, I've examined the ship classes, lined them out, and it appears that we will easily have a sufficient number of unit slots for each capital ship class, with about 15-20 slots to spare. It appears, therefore, that we can differentiate the light and armored cruisers by classes too, though I'll have to see how many of those there are.
Case; yeah, I suspected that I'd have to place a couple of cities somewhere and then cover them up. Maybe I can find a couple of islands out there somewhere on a map. lol. And yes, I also suspected that the AI would flounder given such a task as naval combat on the tactical level. When I began testing, this suspicion was confirmed. I loaded a battlecruiser with shells, switched human player to the opposite side, and hit return. All the shells on the opposing battlecruiser took off in every direction quite indepedently. It might have been my fault, however, because I'd forgotten to give these particular shells the "destroyed after attacking" ability. Maybe they thought they were just air units? 
Mercator; many units will be air units, or I'd consider trying what you suggest. It'd be interesting to be able to play with "oceanic" terrain.
Gepap; Yep, you've stumbled on my formula exactly, though I've added a few things. Torpedos, smoke, and ramming.
The only drawback that I can see will be that the game MUST be played as a duel between two human players AND there will be several very important house rules by which the players must abide. If you can't think of them, try testing the situation yourself and see what you encounter.
Last edited by Exile on 05-04-2004 at 22:54
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Exile
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of the Benighted Realms
Sep 2000
time: 23:17
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Gareth,
I've gone through my Jane's book (again, lol), and have taken a look at a few other sources. Jane's agrees with your assessment of the late-built super-dreadnoughts of the Queen Elizabeth class as the "best" units in the battle. 15 inch guns do make a difference, especially when your opponent is using almost exclusively 11 inch and 12 inch rifles. The QEs also have very thick armor (or is it armour?  ) and a very "modern" look.
Battlecruisers and battleships were differentiated by the former's sacrifice of armor for speed. Both carried all big guns and were capital ships. As you probably know, being both British and a naval warfare enthusiast, the British admiral Jackie Fisher was the driving force responsible for the battlecruiser concept, even though his critics predicted that these ships would be used in the battle line in time of war, where their comparative weakness in armor would be telling and these critics were proved correct. The German battlecruisers were not quite as vulnerable because they had been given more armor. I'm going to simulate this by giving all the capital ships the AEGIS ability, except the British battlecruisers. There is a Jutland site out there--use google to spot it, lol--that has a ship-by-ship list of how many total hits were taken by each ship in the battle. The numbers there are very enlightening. I began testing the AEGIS thing and the result is satisfactory.
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fairline
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of the wing
Sep 2002
time: 05:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Exile
Gareth,
I've gone through my Jane's book (again, lol), and have taken a look at a few other sources. Jane's agrees with your assessment of the late-built super-dreadnoughts of the Queen Elizabeth class as the "best" units in the battle. 15 inch guns do make a difference, especially when your opponent is using almost exclusively 11 inch and 12 inch rifles. The QEs also have very thick armor (or is it armour? ) and a very "modern" look.
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That'll be 'armour' old chap . I hadn't realised until checking my source book that 2 of the improved Royal Sovereign class were also present at Jutland, making a total of six 15-in QE's and RS's armed BBs. You're right: they could throw a lot more metal per salvo than the 11, 12 and 13.5in guns, and were more accurate than the British 13.5in. This was offset slightly by the superior German gunnery; they tended to score more hits than the British.
quote:
Battlecruisers and battleships were differentiated by the former's sacrifice of armor for speed. Both carried all big guns and were capital ships. As you probably know, being both British and a naval warfare enthusiast, the British admiral Jackie Fisher was the driving force responsible for the battlecruiser concept, even though his critics predicted that these ships would be used in the battle line in time of war, where their comparative weakness in armor would be telling and these critics were proved correct. The German battlecruisers were not quite as vulnerable because they had been given more armor. I'm going to simulate this by giving all the capital ships the AEGIS ability, except the British battlecruisers. There is a Jutland site out there--use google to spot it, lol--that has a ship-by-ship list of how many total hits were taken by each ship in the battle. The numbers there are very enlightening. I began testing the AEGIS thing and the result is satisfactory. |
I like the AEGIS flag idea  Again, you're right about the relative armour of the German vs British BC's, while the British carried larger calibre guns (12/13.5 vs 11 in). To be fair, Fisher had envisioned BC's as recce ships and fast merchant raiders (or more accurately, counter-merchant raiders); at the battle of the Falklands they had proved their worth against cruisers, as they had been designed to. It was the blood-and-guts suicidal charge against similarly-armed capitol ships made by Beatty, the BC Fleet CO, that exposed their weakness. Luck played a part as well: HMS Tiger received 15 11-in hits and survived whereas Invincible got unlucky and took 1 hit straight to her magazine.
Have you considered fog-of-war in this? Both Jellicoe and Scheer spent most of the battle not knowing where their enemy was, and when contact was made, little or no use was made of radio, with over-reliance on flag signalling.
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fairline
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of the wing
Sep 2002
time: 05:17
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quote:
Originally posted by GePap
The big question_how do ships replenish their shells? |
Exactly what I was thinking I'd toyed with this idea for a Gallipoli scenario, and we had intended to have the ships replenish their buildable ammo in a port. Obviously this isn't applicable here.
Also, Phenix, you'll need quite a few unit slots for the various calibres of shell - 11, 12, 13.5, 15 in for the big guns, 6in, 5.9 in, 4in etc for the lesser vessels, plus torpedos. It may be possible to rationalise these - the German 11in gun was as effective as the British 12in, for example.
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Exile
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of the Benighted Realms
Sep 2000
time: 23:17
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Gepap; There will be no replenishing shells. Each ship will start the scen with its complement of armaments, etc. HOUSE RULES 1 & 2; no moving shells, etc. from one ship to another. Only 1 shell/torpedo can be "fired" per turn. Obviously I can't place the entire 1-for-1 load of ammunition on big ships, so the shell units will represent amalgamation of firing power. Think of them as broadsides, if from ships, and a spray of torpedos if torpedos. The issue of sub & carrier simultaneously is one that I'll look into.
This is a simulation of a SINGLE BATTLE. It WILL end. This is NOT history. There will be no hasty retreat of the High Seas Fleet. Both sides will fight it out to the last. The supreme frustration of both professionals & amateurs alike, has been this battle's air of being incomplete. I'm going to fix that.
Case; great idea on the sub flag, but I'm going to have to use it for the torpedos. I may still consider it though, if I can't get the map to work the way I want.
Gareth, we've got quite a few units slots still, and yes, I'll group the shells into categories rather than giving each individual calibre its own slot. I am going to take a look at civswap later today.
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Exile
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of the Benighted Realms
Sep 2000
time: 23:17
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Ok, responses . . . .
1.) Excellent Idea, I'll use it. The AF will also be the ramming ability of the ship. Even so, some capital ships will carry secondary armament.
2.) This is precisely what I'm doing with the addtional factor that the torpedo spreads have the submarine ability. Low movement, 4 or 5 range, and high attack & FP.
3.) Intrigueing, but I'm using the subarine ability only for the torpedos (so far . . .)
4.) I've no idea about how to get a specific unit to sit at the top of a stack. If anyone knows this, clue me in. Until then smoke is a unit carried by the DDs and TBs. It will have 0 defense, 0 HP, & 1 MV. It's a 2-dimensional tactic that simulates the effect of the smoke screen. Several DD or TB units can effectively erect a wall protecting a portion of their own fleet. Light units of the enemy will, of course, advance to recon the smoke, and it will thereby "disperse."
5.) Colorful. I'll see if there are any unit slots left.
6.) Good idea and I'll keep it in mind. This stuff will all be part of my testing process.
7.) See answer above.
8.) Son of See answer above.
9.) This is a much more complex question; What options exist in terms of map functionality? I know that during the vanilla game, enemy ships that move beyond my ability to "see" them disappear after a turn. How do I replicate this in a scenario?
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Case
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The backlash starts here
Feb 2000
time: 15:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Exile
I can always come up with some silly tonnage/ship casualties schedule to determine victory, but I'd like to come up with something a little more novel. |
Why would this be silly? As I understand it, the Germans objective when they set out to provoke a showdown with the British fleet was to begin the process of wearing down the British by sinking more ships then they lost. The most common view of historians is that they were sucessful in doing so, but miscalculated the effect that this strategy would have on the Kaiser.
As such, a ratio strikes me as being to most appropriate means of measuring sucess. Given the Kaiser's reaction to German losses, IMO a simple unadjusted 1:1 ratio would be realistic.
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quote:
Originally posted by fairline
Where would you place the WW2 KGV's and Nelson/Rodney in this reckoning? |
I consider both classes to have been qualified failures: the KGVs were slow and woefully undergunned and the Nelson and Rodney were great as monitors but much too slow and cumbersome to be effective battleships.
IMO, the RN would have been better off building more upgraded QEs then bothering with either of those classes. The QEs mix of speed, armour and armament was the best Britain ever achieved. The extraordinary career of the Warspite is testimony to the ships effectiveness and ability to take a beating (the Warspite holds the dubious distinction of being the most damaged ship in the history of the RN - most other designs would have been sunk had they recieved the beating she took at Jutland in 1916 and off Salerno in 1943).
quote:
BTW, Case, aren't you a member of a naval history site? Have there been any discussions about Jutland? |
Yeah, a few. However, all the true battleship geeks hang out at www.warships1.com
quote:
Sorry for the OT Phenix, but this stuff sadly interests me |
Don't knock it - I was offered a high paying job at the Australian Treasury partially on the basis of my ability to credibly talk battleship-speak and my recomendation of Patrick O'Brian's books to the very senior person who interviewed me
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Mercator
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Sorekara no Nanimo
Jan 1970
time: 06:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Boco
Anyone know what governs the visible unit 'at the top' of a stack? May even want smoke to absorb the first salvo, but this may not be possible with all the subtle differences between capital ships that you are portraying. Just hiding a ship's identity under smoke could be cool in itself. |
In the savegame, each unit (in a stack) has two values to determine the (graphic) stack order. One is the index of the unit directly below it, the other the index of the unit directly above it.
AFAIK, that stack order is simply determined by the order in which units enter a square. So, the last unit to enter will be on top. I don't think there's any way to force units to always stay on top.
That all has nothing to do with the order of battle though. The unit with the highest defense value goes first...
quote:
Originally posted by Exile
It will have 0 defense, 0 HP, & 1 MV |
Don't use 0 HP, Civ2 will crash. 1 HP is the minimum...
On the other hand, 0 FP is possible. A unit with 0 firepower doesn't do any damage...
You could give smoke a giant defense strength and no FP. That way, smoke will always absorb the first attack, but it won't actually do any damage. I don't know if you think one lost movement point is enough of a disadvantage to the attacker though.
(edit: I guess that kinda depends on what movement rate your ships will have. If they have movement rates in the dozens, one less is hardly gonna make a difference.)
If you do want smoke do do (slight) damage, giving it a high defense will obviously be more tricky, because with a high defense it might even take out units (and I don't think that's what you want either).
You'll reduce that risk if you just make sure that you give all ships high HP and FP values (say, multiply all by 2... though 12 is the max HP) and keep the smoke HP/FP at 1.
Last edited by Mercator on 07-04-2004 at 19:15
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fairline
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of the wing
Sep 2002
time: 05:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Boco
Gotta love this topic!
[*]Give torps the ability to sink BB's with a single salvo, but keep their range low. Torps were the dreadnaught's bane, and both Admirals were keenly aware of their achilles heel. Maybe a very high fp to reflect the hit or miss nature of torps.
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Good idea - the perceived/actual torpedo threat severely restricted Jellicoe's maneuvring of the Grand Fleet and contributed to the eventual getaway of the High Seas Fleet.
quote:
[*]Have limited zeppelin recce ability. They were out there, but had no bearing on the battle.
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By the same token the British used a single recce seaplane early on which did sight the HSF before it was forced to land; the info wasn't passed on to Jellicoe, though. Remarkably, nobody bothered to tell the captain of the single seaplane carrier supporting the Grand Fleet that they had sailed to engage the Germans, so he remained in port! The general impression I get is that both sides had little or no knowledge of their enemies' overall dispositions for most of the battle, so I would suggest giving neither side any recce ability, beyond that afforded by DDs and light cruisers.
quote:
[*]Part of the vulnerability of the Br BC's was due to cordite flashes destroying the ship. The Germans learned this bitter lesson at Dogger Banks. Perhaps German shells should have higher fp's to simulate the unpredictable nature of this.
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I'd go so far as to make the German 11in shells equivalent to British 12", and German 12" equivalent to Brit 13.5". Calibre (/er ) was offset by superior sighting, gunnery and explosives.
quote:
[*]Maybe Br shells can have higher hp to reflect their higher caliber calibre. |
[/QUOTE]
I'll get you spelling Limey-style yet, Dave (or is that French-style? )
@Exile: What about stackable terrain? It would be pretty silly having a single salvo take out a stack of 5 ships.
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05-04-2004 01:51
But if it's going to be all sea anyway, why not make it an all land map instead and change the graphics to ocean. That way you could play around with the graphics a little more, if necessary, since you have more terrain types to play with. This could really only be problematic if you intended to let ships carry air/land units.
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