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Maniac
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Gent, Belgium
Jul 1999
time: 06:35
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As some of you may have noticed, I held polls for the strongest and weakest factions in the AC-General/Help/Strategy forum a while back. Now these polls are dropping off the first page, so I'll call the results final.
Subtracting a faction's results of the "weakest faction" poll off that faction's result of the "strongest faction" poll, I get the following results:
(PKs got 1, UoP 2, Morgan 1 and Gaia 1 extra point than they had votes in the "strongest faction" poll, due to people accidentally voting for the Aliens, but then realizing their mistake and announcing their new votes in the thread.)
code:
Strongest factions:
University 28 70.00%
Hive 22 52.50%
Drones 17 42.50%
Peacekeepers 13 32.50%
Gaians 9 22.50%
Consciousness 7 17.50%
Morgan 5 12.50%
Angels 4 10.00%
Pirates 1 2.50%
Believers 1 2.50%
Spartans 0 0%
Cult 0 0%
41 votes
Weakest factions:
Cult 30 61.22%
Believers 18 36.73%
Spartans 18 36.73%
Angels 14 28.57%
Morgans 13 26.53%
Pirates 10 20.41%
Peacekeepers 5 10.20%
Drones 3 6.12%
Gaians 2 4.08%
Consciousness 1 2.04%
Hive 1 2.04%
University 1 2.04%
49 votes
Total results:
University 30-1= +29
Hive 22-1= +21
Drones 17-3= +14
Peacekeepers 14-5= +9
Gaians 10-2= +8
Consciousness 7-1= +6
Morgans 6-13= -7
Pirates 1-10= -9
Angels 4-14= -10
Believers 1-18= -17
Spartans 0-18= -18
Cult 0-30= -30
Now I was wondering, since many people admit some factions are weaker than others, wouldn't it be fair to give in a next ACDG the weaker factions some benefits compared to the stronger factions? Doing so would prevent that people don't pick their faction based on what would be most fun to play, but rather on what faction gives a good chance for victory.
Personally I would love to participate in a Spartan faction, if there was one in a next ACDG, as I think they give great roleplay potential. Look at the Spartan Chronicles for example. However since the Spartans have de facto -2 Industry and -1 Economy (due to an inherent -1 Ind and besides that the inability to run Wealth which most factions use for most of the game) compared to about all other factions, I would be quite hesitant to actually play them. It's not that I would per se want to win the ACDG, but to have most fun, it's certainly best one has a competitive faction, so one can at least be powerful enough to be a major player in interfactional diplomacy etcetera.
Would you agree to the principle that the weaker factions get some bonus in the form of a better starting position or some minor modification to their characteristics?
For the Spartans that could for example be giving them the ability to run Wealth just like everyone else, or giving them a rocky mineral square and some energy rich terrain near their HQ to compensate for the Ind & Eco penalty. For another faction like the Angels - who johndmuller indicated some current PEACE members are interested to play next - a modification could for example be give them +1 Probe instead of +2 Probe (so they don't suffer the probe rollover bug after discovering PreSentient Algorithms), but compensate with giving them impunity for Knowledge SE.
Thoughts?
Edit: Oh yeah, this is of course all assuming that the next ACDG would be a multihumanfaction game.
Last edited by Maniac on 05-04-2004 at 05:29
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mart7x5
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A combination of better starting techs and better starting locations maybe...
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Maniac
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Gent, Belgium
Jul 1999
time: 06:35
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quote:
Originally posted by MrWhereItsAt
What about just some key techs? Cult with CentEmp and Spartans with Doc:Loy or something. |
That would only be a one-time boost. Due to their inherent faction weaknesses, they would probably soon fall back anyway. 
quote:
Originally posted by Frankychan
My concern is what makes a team "strong" vs. "weak"? I mean, strong research but weak military could be a strong faction to some, but weak to others? |
That's indeed a valid point. However the weakest factions can even be beaten on their own game, making them good at nothing. For example the Planet Cult is a green faction, but about everything the Cult can do, the Gaians can do much better. And the Spartans are supposed to be a good conqueror faction, but due to their Ind & Eco penalties their economy and production starts falling back very soon compared to the builders, meaning that after a while they can be easily outproduced in military size - supposedly the Spartans' strongpoint.
quote:
I would prefer a more scientific rationale behind what determines the "quality" of a certain faction. |
quote:
Originally posted by GeneralTacticus
Sounds good to me, as long as there's a consensus on which factions are weak and which are strong. |
We have the votes and experience of some 50 people, some of which have played this game for several years. IMO that's a better quality judgement than any kind of theoretical faction strength model we could invent.
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Jamski
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lol ED&D is officially full PvP LOL
May 2002
time: 05:35
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quote:
Besides, correct if I'm wrong, but I thought that a majority wanted to play with the existent factions, not with custom ones? |
The vast majority voted for core SMAX rules, so any aid the AI get will have to be using the basic scenario editor, not though custom installations of SMAX.
-Jam
Last edited by Jamski on 05-04-2004 at 19:42
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Maniac
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Gent, Belgium
Jul 1999
time: 06:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Impaler[WrG]
Belivers - +25% on Defence as well as offence, Free Rec Commons, drop the -1 Planet rating
Morgans - Interest on his Energy Credits, Free Energy Banks |
That seems overcompensating for me. Free rec commons means free market without a problem as soon as Miriam discovers IndEcon, and Morgan with energy banks would make them as powerful as Zak I think. Imagine: Demo/Green/Wealth: +2 Eco & +4 Eff, giving you the ability to run 100% Economy, that combined with a 50% bonus to credit production. 
quote:
Gaians - start game with Alien Artifact, FreeBiology Labs
Lal - TechShare 3, basicaly the Planatary Datalinks. |
The Gaians and PKs are generally considered to be among the strongest factions, so I don't think they need any boosting.
Anyway, it seems about everyone agrees about giving the weaker factions some advantages, but that there is disagreement whether those advantages should involve a better starting position or some improve faction characteristics. Should I start a poll about it?
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Kody
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If life's standing still and your soul's confused
Jun 2003
time: 14:35
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quote:
The factions are so closely balanced as they are. The only faction that could possibly use a boost is Spartans getting something minor like +1 Effic. Anything else and we'll break the factions, so best to leave them be, and perhaps give the "weaker" factions a patch of monsoon jungle or something.
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I actually believe Jamski is right. I think factions are mostly precieved as weaker or stronger due to people's playing styles being incompatible or compatible.
Also a few extra bonuses at the starting positions really do make a world of difference with this game. Hive had an extra rocky mineral or two over other factions for example, while the drones had to travel a bit to get to their bonuses. I'm not sure the SP stunt the Hive pulled would even be possible without those rocky minerals.
I believe Googlie saw the Hive's weakness in turnplaying and compensated a little.
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Maniac
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Gent, Belgium
Jul 1999
time: 06:35
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quote:
Originally posted by GeoModder
This is SMACX we're gonna play, more then enough 'strong' faction choices thus for DG's, SP's and AI's, especially if the progenitors will be played be AI's. |
True, but wouldn't you find it a pity if we were never to see a human Cult, Spartan, Believer or Angel faction in a ACDG, and it would always be the 8 strongest factions that get picked by human players every time?
quote:
Originally posted by Kody
I actually believe Jamski is right. I think factions are mostly precieved as weaker or stronger due to people's playing styles being incompatible or compatible. |
I agree with you on that for all factions except two: the Cult and Spartans. IMHO one needs a good industrial production for about any play style, no matter if it's peaceful builder or agressive warmonger, and with their -1 Ind and inability to run Wealth those two really lag behind.
Perhaps some of us could play some challenge where an Alien faction needs to be conquered as fast as possible, and compare what factions can do it fastest: the conquer factions Cult or Sparta, or builders such as UoP or the PKs?
quote:
Also a few extra bonuses at the starting positions really do make a world of difference with this game. Hive had an extra rocky mineral or two over other factions for example, while the drones had to travel a bit to get to their bonuses. I'm not sure the SP stunt the Hive pulled would even be possible without those rocky minerals. |
Does that mean you wouldn't agree on slightly modifying some factions, but would agree with giving a better starting position?
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Kody
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If life's standing still and your soul's confused
Jun 2003
time: 14:35
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quote:
Does that mean you wouldn't agree on slightly modifying some factions, but would agree with giving a better starting position?
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Yeah I would agree on a slightly modified starting position. However, I want to annul any vote I have in the next ACDG. For the record I'm not even sure if I'm going to commit to the next ACDG. I've got conflicting real life work and knowledge that I spent far too much time on the last ACDG.
Edit:
I know JustinShane had a neat cult strategy, and I know a friend that did really well with cult on high fungus in single player.
You have to be really careful that a bit of a help doesn't turn into a decisive advantage. I've haven't played many games, but the games I have played I've looked very carefully at. Small changes can make big effects sometimes.
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05-04-2004 05:21
(well maybe not the gass). Drop Industry penalty
, but negative planet removed shouldn't.
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