07-04-2004 04:34									#1
	Does the road to Legopolis go through Neu Theben? Enter the AD-FREE zone

Although on one hand a war against ND just gives Lego another chance to build their way to glory, with ND effectively allied to Lego as things stand, an attack with GoW on Lego would just get ND cutting GoW up, unless GoW compromised their attack.

MZ understands this, and I'll wager UnO and Aggie do too, but the wider GoW team has affection still for their old ally.

However, the chat with MZ got the message over - either ND join up or they have to get 'pre-empted'. It is GoW who are best placed to talk ND into GAUL. Lego will be offering ND 72 virgins a month to secure their alliance - all those luxuries, a tech partner, and a military foil against GS and their allies - even a Uranium guarantee perhaps. It makes me puke how ND are doing this, but there's no point in moaning too much, we have to deal with it. Controlling ND's luxuries might be the only way to keep them out of Lego's hands, and dying in the attempt to do that might be better then letting Lego win by default.

Best thing is for GoW to talk ND into GAUL. Failing that we see if GoW want to hit Lego or ND, and meanwhile consider ourselves whether the best assault on Lego would be to disable their ally first.

	07-04-2004 04:55									#2
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PM sent to Aggie (See Log) on this subject.

	07-04-2004 04:59									#3
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Pillage and burn!

This SS/UN/culture victory stuff bores me...

	07-04-2004 07:59									#4
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I think we have to move on ND first, before marines come about. before possibly even rubber comes round. Its going to have to be a suprise assault from GoW's terrain, as undoubtedly Nd has spotters on their unoccupied territory, and a rail system, if in place, will shred our landers. The key would be to eviscerate ND before lego would have a chance to land. We know that they have a large army, largest in the game now. do they have the transport capacity necessary? Transport capacity + ability to move through the whole of ND to either hit us or GoW? Its got to be a knife in the dark. we might have to land units up north in GoW land ourselves. Hmm. I will be home tomorrow and will contemplate actions on my drive home ~5.5 glorious hours of alone driving

	07-04-2004 14:31									#5
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I'm not sure... I would prefer that it would be the other way around. That the road to ND goes through Legopolis. If we hurry, ND will not have built up its infrastructure yet, and thus if they join Lego in their defense, they do not pose a great threat. The other way around, if we attack ND and Lego comes to their rescue, we get the full power of Lego, and we do not choose the battlefield anymore. There is no way of telling if they will go to Bob or to Stormia.

If ND helps Lego, they only have one possible target: GoW's home turf. And is that so bad for us?

Something else to consider: let's say we race towards tanks. Lego, as main tech competitor, can be some 15 turns behind us... more then enough to take on Lego first, and don't risk tanks facing us. ND does not have the research power to do Lego's job for them, they do not have the culture, hence not the libs and unis they need. So after Lego, we still can take on a tankless ND.

OTOH, if we go for ND first, Lego will have time to catch up, and gets to Marines before the ND war is over... hence Stormia is not safe anymore.

No, for us, there is only one way: First of all Lego, later ND. But, we have to think on our possible allies here, as GoW would obviously better have ND, and only later Lego to stay safe.

DeepO

	07-04-2004 17:27									#6
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Ugh. The situation is crap. But Cort is right that we must play the hand we're dealt.

The main strike has to be from GoW. Our contribution should be coastal landings that can take out what, 2 or 3 of ND's luxury sources? That ought to hurt them (and by extension, Lego).

I guess we're gonna have to start building some units, eh?

-Arrian

	07-04-2004 18:59									#7
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian I guess we're gonna have to start building some units, eh?

Now that is one certainty we have... but we will get there without any doubt. Currently, factories are lined up, after that only a few cities deserve hospitals and extra unis, the rest is free to build units.

DeepO

	08-04-2004 05:00									#8
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What DeepO said about how much better it would be for Lego if we hit ND first, is so true. They will not be strained, regardless of the out come. If things look bad enogh for ND, the may just sit by, nothing ND could do about.

Lego can't be hurt no matter who dos what to whom. If the three of us slice each other up, Lego zooms by everyone. If ND is doing ok, then Lego can come in and hurt GoW and us.

I doubt we can do ND fast enough to move on to Lego before they get tanks.

I do feel we will be compelled to either hit someone or lose. It may have to be ND, but if we can do Lego instead we are better off.

	08-04-2004 10:11									#9
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As I see it, it'll be difficult to persuade ND to leave their powerful Blockheaded allies. No matter how you look at it, an alliance with Lego is a great one. Strong tech, strong production, and a good defensible position are all key to that.

Neu Theben should perhaps be seen, then, as a small conclave in the middle of Legopolis - as the Vatican City is to Rome. If Lego falls, ND is screwed. If ND falls, Lego is still in good shape. Any attempt to prosecute a successful war would almost have to be fought on a Lego and ND front, as the moment we commit troops to one nation, the other will see an opening.

	08-04-2004 13:47									#10
	Increase the size of your Attachments

It's not certain yet that ND will join Lego in case we declare war on Lego, but I think it is for certain that once we attack ND, Lego will intervene. ND currently doesn't have the forces for invasions or so, as they are fully building their cities. Lego has their cities in place.

And again, aren't we looking too much from GoW's PoV here? ND simply can't attack us before they get marines (which, if we play it well, means never). If we go after Lego, we will have time to slash them, and still have an outdated sea wall blocking any landings on our Western side. Lego is different, in that it has the tech-power to research marines, and attack us from the East while we're busy with ND.

The only ones in danger are GoW. If they are willing to risk it, why not? If that means they need to keep 2/3 of their army at home for defense against ND, and we can take 2/3 to Lego, that will only improve our chances. If we have superior tech, we don't need an ally for the difference in numbers so hard, we need them to split Lego's effort in defending its country, as a diversion, and as protection that GoW won't backstab us while we're off fighting Lego.

The more I think about this, the more convinced I become that we'll have to go after Lego first, and soon. The deadline we have to meet is that ND can't get to marines before we attack them, or retreat from Lego if things go bad.

DeepO

	09-04-2004 04:28									#11
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I agree, we would have to let GoW hold back quite a bit to prevent ND from jumping them. It could be that ND will even see the light and join. That would be the end for Lego.

I agree to an extent that the ties to Lego is good for ND, but it forces them to lose the game. I guess that is not a concern for them. If they have some lame idea that Lego can help them oust GoW or us, is nuts. They could do that, but it won't do any good for ND.

	10-04-2004 17:08									#12
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OK, on the basis of this discussion we can say to GoW that the balance of feeling in GS is that Lego remain the priority.

If I can catch MZ later today, I'll see if he's got anywhere with ND.

	11-04-2004 01:11									#13
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Just as a hypothetical plan again: Assuming we have tanks (2 movers), and ND is protected by infs, the best way to invade ND would be by either capturing, or better by receiving the city Canton from GoW. From there, we have a direct path to Mavda, Triplais, Neu-Te-Ben, Anagramaskus, Marlowa, Fordreizak, Zerigossa, Forlowenmut, Sirtiago, Bonigo.

All those cities can fall by our hands in 1 turn, and in case GoW cooperates and takes Stonedina, nearly all of them are defendable against ND's rebound as well. We could drive them to former RP lands, but it would require a vast operation, and the assurance that we have loads of tanks opposing their defenders.

The best defended positions are likely to be Anagramaskus and Stonedina, which we could leave to GoW. Mavda is almost certainly well defended as well, but I doubt their defending their truely core cities that well. Most of the rest of their troops is likely to be in the South, watching out for us. And if we do it well, taking with us enough workers (or using their RRs), they can't reach us in the first turn...

And still, I think Lego should fall first

DeepO

	12-04-2004 20:58									#14
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I agree that Lego needs to get trimmed first, but we need to also start thinking about the post-war situation. (Yes, I realize the irony of thinking through something that is looking increasingly less likely!) Some questions for us to think about:

1. Assume we do significant damage to the Lego homeland (6-9 cities razed, pillaging, etc.) and have some limited territorial presence in Legoland. Is that going to put us in a position to win? In the past, we came to the conclusion that we needed more (productive) land to make a run at winning this game. Since the land we take from Lego will not suffice (corruption's going to be terrible there), do we still need Bobian land? (Maybe RP could move over there; they seem to be good at relocating!! )

2. What will the reduction of Lego's power do to the balance of power on Bob? I would expect, following Lego's reduction, that GoW would turn its eyes either at ND or us (with ND being an objectively better choice). We need to consider NOW how the decisions we make WRT the Lego war affect how we position ourselves in a later ND-GoW war.

Again, just a couple of thoughts and questions. Sadly, I'm better at that than in providing solutions.

	12-04-2004 21:14									#15
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Will there be a post war? I mean, how much longer is this game going to continue? Assume an alliance can damage, or better yet, destroy Lego (which is possible, BTW, with a good plan). Everybody will be looking to the others... the next war will probably follow immediately. If we can get GoW to play with us, ND follows... Vox can be done as an afterthought, RP is already gone, I don't there will be any time to develop any land we gain: we simply need to build forces, and attack everything in sight.

This game has been going on for one and a half year now, I don't see us doing another year. Spaceship would be way too boring to hold interest of the teams.

DeepO

	13-04-2004 09:39									#16
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

That is about what we figured to do, just wipe Lego or nearly so and go on to ND.

At some point during the war, the others will be looking to see when and who to hit. The real question could be how to avoid getting stabbed during the early part of the war. If the war does go well, I doubt the others would be i position to deal with us.

GoW may try to stick with us and take most of Bob as their best bet to win. That path at least puts them in second with a shot at first. At this point they have no shot with the status quo.

	13-04-2004 19:38									#17
	Inflate your Upload Space

Our hope in that scenario would be to generate a leader during the Lego campaign - and hide it if possible - and repopulate Legoland with our cities while assisting GoW with a takeover on Bob. Then, when the time is right, we rush a palace on Legoland, backstab GoW, and go for broke.

-Arrian

	13-04-2004 20:18									#18
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Chances are high that a leader comes from the war, especially if we take it slowly at first, conserving forces. However, I'm sceptical on its use: we can rush a palace on Legoland, but do we have time to build our cities? Every city we hold needs protection... it is entirely possible that the costs will be too high, and that we better disband our new cities, have some mobile force defending the empty land, and use all our troops in a new invasion.

My point is that things will have to go fast. There will be no time for factories, barracks, courthouses, markets and stuff like that. Without those, new cities don't gain us anything... only defensive headaches. So I'd rather see us going full out on production on Stormia, give Legoland to RP if they want, and use what ever forces we can scrape together to go after ND (or GoW). That means we can keep on defending our home ground.

DeepO

	13-04-2004 20:22									#19
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If things go down the way you guys are saying (no SS), then we must expand to win (domination). If GoW and ND fight, with us on GoW's side, we might have the ability to build up Legoland. Yes, that area will be weak at first. But I don't see much choice, if we're playing to win.

-Arrian

	13-04-2004 20:34									#20
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domination... perhaps. I hope it will be possible, but it could very well be that we declare a winner once we have damaged enough teams.

I didn't want to sound like we can't try to hold onto Legoland, but rebuilding our palace there seems a bit much to me. I consider it more of a territorial thing, where only the ground counts, and not the production it can provide... first signs of trouble, the whole of our cities there can be disbanded, as we will not have any forces to spend on defense without either damaging our offensive power, or risking invasion of Stormia. And that last things is my biggest fear: whatever happens, we can't let anyone put a foot on Stormia.

DeepO

	13-04-2004 20:54									#21
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

All I'm saying is that moving our palace over there would cost us almost nothing.

If we were unable to hold it, I suspect our palace would jump back to EotS, no harm done, really.

The potential upside, however...

-Arrian

	13-04-2004 21:01									#22
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You're right about no harm being done... the FP in Arashi will for nearly all our cities be good enough corruption wise. If we have 10 cities on Legoland, the commerce gain will almost certainly be bigger.

Also, once we are invading Lego, not a lot of attention will go to research, so we can let Hurricane drop in efficiency.

As to jumping back: we will have to pump our pop up in EotS to get that effect, but there is no reason why we can't foresee that.

DeepO

	14-04-2004 01:25									#23
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We do not have to make that choice right away. We can wait a bit to see how things develop.

If we (all parties) bust Lego way down or even out, then holding some land will not be real hard.

	14-04-2004 02:48									#24
	Inflate your Upload Space

The more I think about it, the more I see one problem in all of this. Tech.

Let's assume we bind ourselves to GoW (which are the likeliest candidates), and attack Lego first. If we ally with GoW, we can make sure we reach tanks and marines at least 15, probably even 20 turns before Lego can get there. That leaves a window of 10 turns in which we can build tanks, and start our invasion. Lego will have lots of defenders, but no offensive capabilities, and normally will lose taht war. Fine.

Now, we look at ND, and want to invade them as well. But, if part of our alliance was that we also brought ND up to speed in research, they will have tanks and marines, and the risk augmented seriously... not so good. In an ideal world, we should not give the final techs to ND.

I've been thinking on this, and it seems to me we have a joker here. We have the 2 most expensive techs of the industrial age advantage over anyone, and that will remain so for at least another 20 years if we don't give away prereqs. Even if we trade SM, we still hold 15 turns advantage... I think the major accomplishment will be if we can convince GoW to ally with us, without sharing techs until at the very last moment. If we on top of that convince ND that they will get the techs in due time, but never get them delivered. And if Lego is not hard pressed to catch on our advantage, starting to work towards Electronics instead of towards refining.

Now, how can we do such a thing? We hire GoW. Not for Lego, as that is something they want theirselves, but for ND. We hire them now, for when we return from Lego (either succesful or not). The price we pay is 2-fold: on one hand the spoils of war when succesful. On the other we pay them the two priciest techs.

Further, we explain to ND that we do not want to devaluate the techs for Lego, and that hence we're not sharing them until at the very last moment. We make some vague insinuations to spoils of war, and that we would prefer logistic support instead of full military one (for instance in allowing them to buy cities off us, cities we first conquer from Lego). Whatever happens, we do not bring them to tanks, and always postpone. The moment we would give them all the techs, they don't receive techs, but tanks.

Lego is the more trickier one. If they ally with ND, and both of hem takes one part of the tech tree, they have a chance of catching us. But, we can avoid that by selling techs to ND, all techs, except SM, AT, and Electronics. ND will have no reason to go to Lego, so Lego is isolated. They can try on their own to catch us, but won't succeed.

Major problem here is that we need to disclose this to GoW, and they are perfectly able to backstab us, and take what they like best of this plan to ND. However, they must realize that we're not going to give the 2 most expensive techs away for free, and they do not have 4000 gold laying around to buy them of us, while doing normal research.

DeepO