15-04-2004 17:12									#121
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quote: Originally posted by Park Avenue likewise you can be a good side and go out in the early rounds, when it's a knockout.

It's not a knockout, its a league!

Uniteds' form in the CL over the last 10 years is 1 win, 2 semis and the rest knocked out in the quarter finals or before, thats not top 3 material

	15-04-2004 17:38									#122
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Real Madrid, Milan, Juventus, Bayern Munich

ManU have been there and there abouts but not quite to the levels of those four (since the Champions league started in '92).

	15-04-2004 17:47									#123
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Damn it! It seems like PA can never accept anything as a fair result if it's to manyoo's disadvantage. So now knock-out tournaments isn't fair. I guess it's time to scrap the FA-cup. Hell, why not stop playing the matches altogether. I mean, the better team might have a bad day, and that's not fair!

	15-04-2004 17:51									#124
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He's a typical ManU fan, they are terrible whingers when things don't go their way. Still they are the third best side in Britain this year, not too bad.

	15-04-2004 18:01									#125
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Just for the heck of it, number of times in the CL-final during the last 10 years:

4 times:
Juventus
3 times:
Real Madrid
Milan
2 times:
Valencia
Ajax
München
1 time:
Leverkusen
Man U
Barcelona
Dortmund

	15-04-2004 18:04									#126
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I didn't add Ajax and Valencia to my list because they haven't done much in the years they didn't make the final.

	16-04-2004 00:09									#127
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How about looking at win-loss ratios in the CL.

	16-04-2004 00:48									#128
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Do you actually have a table with win-loss ratios handy or are you just pulling monkeys out of you ass?

	16-04-2004 01:00									#129
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Here is an interesting table summarizing the latest 5 years of European football (includes both CL and UEFA Cup matches). I have yet to figure out what the d column stands for.

http://www.geocities.com/jfaugeras/uefa5y.html

	16-04-2004 01:54									#130
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quote: Originally posted by Jay Bee Here is an interesting table summarizing the latest 5 years of European football (includes both CL and UEFA Cup matches). I have yet to figure out what the d column stands for. http://www.geocities.com/jfaugeras/uefa5y.html

d stands for "Double Participation". This means they were knocked out of the CL into the UEFA Cup.

	16-04-2004 04:29									#131
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Well I think that table (and the previous one) shows United have been a consistently top 4 side in Europe over the past 5 and 10 years...

	16-04-2004 04:40									#132
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quote: Originally posted by *End Is Forever* Well I think that table (and the previous one) shows United have been a consistently top 4 side in Europe over the past 5 and 10 years...

No THIS table shows where United are, Cheers Krop.

4 times:
Juventus
3 times:
Real Madrid
Milan
2 times:
Valencia
Ajax
München
1 time:
Leverkusen
Man U
Barcelona
Dortmund

Who would you displace to give ManU the fourth spot and why (besides the fact your a Manc?)

	16-04-2004 04:46									#133
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quote: Originally posted by Park Avenue How about looking at win-loss ratios in the CL.

I thought we had a tacit agreement about these 'Americanisms'?

	16-04-2004 11:53									#134
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quote: Originally posted by reds4ever I thought we had a tacit agreement about these 'Americanisms'?

In my post above I first wrote"European soccer", which is what I always say. However, in consideration to you Brits, I changed it to "European football"


PS. Arsenal,

	16-04-2004 13:08									#135
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quote: Originally posted by MikeH He's a typical ManU fan, they are terrible whingers when things don't go their way. Still they are the third best side in Britain this year, not too bad.

I guess that makes me an atypical Man. United fan, because I think they didn't do too bad this year (people are selling their kidneys to play in the Premier League and they're sitting in third!).

Except in that second leg against Porto.

	16-04-2004 13:13									#136
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If your browse around on the site that Jay bee contributed you'll find a number of different rankings for different time period. Why don't you all go out and grab the one that fits your mind and everyone will be happy!

	16-04-2004 13:41									#137
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1.Real Madrid CF played: 76 / points: 120
2.FC Barcelona 72 / 116
3.Valencia CF 72 / 114
4.Manchester United FC 68 / 101

So over five years the four best teams in Europe are above.

Of course unless you wish to argue that Lyon, Porto, Chelsea, and Deportivo are the best four in Europe right now, I think you are best taking some sort of lag like above.

Thanks.

	16-04-2004 13:53									#138
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So even taking that into acount ManU still aren't in the top three which is what you claimed.

	16-04-2004 13:55									#139
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Really? I think the way they reached their points totals is dodgy and open to dispute.

	16-04-2004 14:08									#140
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4th highest number of games played
4th highest number of wins

	16-04-2004 15:25									#141
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What about win ratio? Points ratio?

And how about giing each win a rating depending on the quality of the team being played

	16-04-2004 15:48									#142
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Well, if you look at the site jay bee linked to, you can also find a ranking that tries to incorporate other factors than number of matches, wins and goal difference. It's a tad complicated - kind of like a HDI for football clubs - so it's quite possible to claim that it's not objective. There's also a number of lists, using different years and to some degree different methods.

Link:site

	16-04-2004 15:57									#143
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quote: Originally posted by Park Avenue What about win ratio? Points ratio? And how about giing each win a rating depending on the quality of the team being played

What about actually WINNING the thing? Juve and AC must be up there somewhere?

	16-04-2004 16:16									#144
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If anyone else wins anything ManU fans are always trying to devalue it in some way, if they win they are the best team in the world/europe. It's sad really.

	16-04-2004 17:40									#145
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To be honest Mike, that's a characteristic about just about any football fan of any football club in the world. I don't agree with the way Stu is arguing, but it's pretty difficult to deny that United have been consistently there and thereabouts in the Champions League over the past five or more years, something that Arsenal (with pretty much the same opportunities!) have pretty much failed to do.

	16-04-2004 18:29									#146
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Fair enough, United have been consistantly top 4-8 over the last 10 years, I don't see what legitimate criteria puts them in the top 3

	16-04-2004 19:06									#147
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quote: Originally posted by *End Is Forever* To be honest Mike, that's a characteristic about just about any football fan of any football club in the world. I don't agree with the way Stu is arguing, but it's pretty difficult to deny that United have been consistently there and thereabouts in the Champions League over the past five or more years, something that Arsenal (with pretty much the same opportunities!) have pretty much failed to do.

Sorry that you are accidently getting caught up in my attempts to wind Stu up.

	16-04-2004 19:29									#148
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Wind me up? No, I can easily tell you don't believe what you're saying.

	17-04-2004 12:24									#149
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back on topic, no Arsenal are not on the slide.

Arsenal 5 - Leeds 0 ;O)

	17-04-2004 16:25									#150
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You're a Liverpool fan, r4e, what do you care?

It amazes me how people are prepared to expend more energy slagging off United than they are supporting their own team...