07-04-2004 19:11									#1
	Reasons to play C3C vs. PTW Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Ok, I'm finally getting C3C off ebay to save some bucks on what seems to be a risky venture. All I've read so far are negative comments...

Are there any good reasons to play C3C vs. PTW???

	07-04-2004 19:44									#2
	Got spare money?

Well, there is some neat new stuff. 2 new civ traits, 7 new civs, some different bonus tiles (sugar, tobacco), some new wonders, some tech tree changes (first to philo gets a free tech like in CivII, and the newest patched played with the industrial tech tree a bit) and a significantly changed corruption system.

That's just the "epic game." There are also the conquests themselves. Some of 'em are pretty cool. Especially if you don't deliberately exploit them (buying up all the AI workers & getting alliances with everyone against Carthage on turn one in the Rise of Rome scenario, for example).

There are definitely problems. But since you've clearly already seen them mentioned, I won't go into that here.

-Arrian

	07-04-2004 19:54									#3
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Despite its current state, there are some game play improvements in C3C that you can't mod into PTW, so I would not go back to PTW: Scientific leaders, AA capability, the new ground and sea bombardment mechanics, the new corruption model.

	07-04-2004 20:06									#4
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

I admit that I like the implementation of lethal bombardment.

I'm not sure I like the idea of Celts being agricultural...

That sub bug I keep hearing about realy erks me...Then again, I rarely use subs...

They removed Radio from the Industrial Age right? I'm not up to date on the tech tree changes, sorry. I can live with those I'm sure. However, if anyone here doesn't mind reposting them, I'd appreciate it

One more thing...have any of you seen a noticeable difference in the new corruption calculation?

	07-04-2004 21:34									#5
	Support Apolyton

I've never gone back to PTW (even with the minor issues in the latest patch) and never will.

	07-04-2004 21:46									#6
	Tired of ads?

The new corruption system is definitely a big change, Warrior Poet.

The Forbidden Palace functions much differently now, and Communism is not only worthwhile, it's probably overpowered.

I'll leave explanantions to Alexman, though, since every time I try, I screw up.

-Arrian

	07-04-2004 22:13									#7
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by WarriorPoet I'm not sure I like the idea of Celts being agricultural...

Yes, you will. Agr is a great starting attribute, allowing you to get a boost on city growth: 3 food for city tile, cheap aqueducts. And with 2 food irrigated deserts, you can place your cities almost anywhere.

And you'll definitely love how C3C reduced the cost of the Gallic Swordsmen from 50 to 40.

	07-04-2004 22:18									#8
	Put an end to popups!

I like using the sub bug start a war with someone. I figure it is "an international incident".

	07-04-2004 22:18									#9
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

If you'd like to try out the new Celts in a designed scenario, you might want to try AU502 - Swords and Ploughshares It is the latest Apolyton University course where a lot of people play the same game as a comparison game to help everyone increase their game play. It's non-competitive and you can post your results in the respective During Action Reports or not if you don't want to do so.

	07-04-2004 23:07									#10
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

My most successful C3C games so far have been a couple with the Celts and one with the Netherlands. The Agricultural trait is quickly becoming my favorite, although anything would be hard pressed to replace the Industrious trait as it was implemented in PTW.

Last edited by TheArsenal on 08-04-2004 at 00:38

	07-04-2004 23:55									#11
	Support Apolyton

Hope that woman I bought the game from ships this thing to me asap, lol!

Apolyton U, eh? hmmm.... Thanks for the info, Rhot, I'll get over there.

Concerning the changes to corruption, is this in a thread already? I haven't found it yet, but I'll keep looking.

Don't get me wrong, I see the HUGE advantage of being agricultural, but something about the militeristic tag always tugged at my heart strings...could be my scotch-irish roots...

	08-04-2004 00:31									#12
	Got spare money?

Alexman did make a thread... check the Strategy forum. It should be something like "Everything you wanted to know about corruption: C3C edition." I'd find it for you, but I've gotta run, sorry.

-Arrian

	08-04-2004 00:37									#13
	Suffering from ads?

Both new traits are reasons NOT to play C3C as far as I'm concerned. They are both way too powerful.

Fortunately, you can mod them to be balanced easier than you could mod the old Industrious trait in PTW.

As for corruption, here's everything I know.

	08-04-2004 00:38									#14
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

I was really dissapointed with the game (relatively speaking, of course. It is a civ game after all ) when it first came out. Civ 2 was much easier to mod and all of that, but now, with conquests - I am really happy with the game and find that my loyalty (or perseverance - whichever you prefer to use) has paid off. I won't list the reasons why it's great now, but in short, after having played civ3 without the addons again on a friends PC - I can simply say that it just IS better in all way, and brings the game much closer to my original expectations when I bought civ3 in the first place.

	08-04-2004 00:55									#15
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Ok, I read Alexman's amazing posts...both the civ3 and the C3C editions...why do my eyes hurt???

So....RCP is out, it will only hurt you if you are into mongo huge empires....

Communism is mega powerful now, like everyone says, except now I see why....

The biggest factors in corruption seem to be OCN and City Rank...

Distance runs a close third, but seems to be more easily managed, via wonders, etc...

C3C cannot be played like PTW at all then...at least not in city placement...

Alex, too bad there aren't any Industrious and Agricultural civs...lol

	08-04-2004 01:17									#16
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

The Maya are both Ind and Agri. The best REXers in the game. Too bad for not being able to build archers.

	08-04-2004 02:58									#17
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

C3C has the potential to be better for sure..........I just hope they finish it.

	08-04-2004 04:09									#18
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

I went happily back to PtW, what concerns PBEM. It's not optimal, but a nice balanced game with a smarter AI (including barbarians) than Conquests has. But I don't play SP Civ3 at all at the moment.

I will surely give Conquests another shot, once it is out of the beta phase, perhaps in a year or so, if ever. It has the potential to be a very good game, but so far it's one big construction site.

	08-04-2004 04:13									#19
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

SR, your right, it is not perfect, but Different games suit different people. I would suggest C3C to warmongers, and PTW to Peaceniks, but You can play each game with the others strategy.

And I'm a peacenik, and I play C3C on Emp. It is not to hard. I like the challenge

	08-04-2004 04:48									#20
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by shmily_dana I like using the sub bug start a war with someone. I figure it is "an international incident".

Bingo, the sub bug can be quite useful.

	08-04-2004 06:18									#21
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

well you have to be in C3C to win it...

you have the game, take the plunge....

	08-04-2004 07:45									#22
	Tired of ads?

There is nothing I miss from PTW, although this is coming from a casual SP gamer, though I'm getting an idea for a new mod/scenario...

Anyways, the tech tree changes brought around, besides the addition of a Fascism tech (for said government), are:
* Electronics requirement removed from Motorized Transportation
* Radio Tech removed
* Civil Defense requires Electronics
* Advanced Flight now requires Electronics
* Radar Towers require Advanced Flight

No one's really sure why they did it, but I haven't heard anyone complain about it.

	08-04-2004 11:17									#23
	Tired of ads?

quote: I would suggest C3C to warmongers, and PTW to Peaceniks

Yes, Conquests is a war game, although there are better ones out.

quote: Bingo, the sub bug can be quite useful

You shouldn't repeat that too often, or else it will never be fixed. Besides, it'S way too random to be of any use.

quote: No one's really sure why they did it, but I haven't heard anyone complain about it

You must be deaf. Lots of people complained, not because it's a bad change, but because there are more annoying bugs to fix, like the stealth units bug, dumb barbarians (they were good ip PtW), dumb AI tile improvement (also better in PtW) etc., only to name a few.

	08-04-2004 11:32									#24
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by Sir Ralph You must be deaf. Lots of people complained, not because it's a bad change, but because there are more annoying bugs to fix, like the stealth units bug, dumb barbarians (they were good ip PtW), dumb AI tile improvement (also better in PtW) etc., only to name a few.

I was referring to people complainging about the change being a bad change, ie one that makes the game worse. Of course people have complained about the bugs, you WOULD have to be deaf (err, blind) not to see them...

Main problems I've noticed people complain about : sub bug and bad military leader use...requires special modifications to actually get armies (eg, have the palace spawn armies).

	08-04-2004 15:43									#25
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Originally posted by DrSpike

Doc, I was gonna ask, but then I saw your sig and thought better of it

	08-04-2004 17:21									#26
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Apart from the sub bug, there's just about only one thing I miss from PTW; half-way decent barbarians.

That said, I believe the Vanilla Barbarians were the best ones yet, so I'm still annoyed they were merely half-way decent in PTW.

Oh, yes, I'm not entirely happy with the changes to Ironclads, either. Researching that extra tech never seens worthwhile, and at least in my games the AI hasn't been much keen to get it either. Going directly from Frigates to Cruisers feels weird. The naval unit progression was weird enough 'fore - this made it even odder.

	08-04-2004 18:05									#27
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Yes, there seem to be more good than bad in C3C.

The ironclad extra tech is un-nerving...I think that should have stayed as part of steam...

I look forward to testing some mods from this community, I really want to see the following mod:

Minoans vs. Greeks vs. Romans vs. Phoenecian City-States vs. Egyptians vs. Ostergoths, Visigoths, Gauls, Persians, Carthage, the Kingdom of Ethiopia, and Arabian city-states

Palace generating 1 army per 15 turns.

All capitols set in place with a couple cities for Greece, Rome, Carthage, and Ethiopia.

You'd have to place the city-states, of which I guess the minoans would be represented by Crete...which isn't entirely historically accurate...

Guess that's the rise of Rome scenario with a twist?

	08-04-2004 18:45									#28
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

FYI: I noticed you mentioned the Ag/Ind combo earlier. It IS strong. But not quite as strong as you might think if you're under the impression that Ind is the same as in PTW. Ind has been largely nerfed.

Instead of a 100% boost to worker speed, it's now 50% and slaves work at 1/2 speed of non-industrious workers, no matter what (slaves are the same speed for all civs). That's a pretty big hit. Consequently, I see Ind as a 2nd tier trait now.

Alexman mentions the strength of the new traits. They are strong, but as has been noted by others, Agricultural isn't the absolute monster it seems to be if you don't restart to get a river/lake start. Many people - myself included - often do that, and that skews perception of the trait. Under the right conditions, it is indeed immensely powerful. Seafaring is pretty much always powerful on archipelago or continents maps.

-Arrian

	08-04-2004 19:06									#29
	Inflate your Upload Space

Yes, the free boost in sea unit movement could be quite powerful.

I'm sad to see that they nerfed the Ind trait...boo

Does that make Religious or Scientific the pick of choice after Seafaring?

	08-04-2004 19:13									#30
	Full PM-box? Change here!

The most powerful trait combo in general is seafaring/agricultural, which gives you about 10 traits worth of traits (ok so I exaggerated a leetle ). However one must always be careful of making blanket statements since it always depends to a degree.

After those ubertraits I like scientific.