09-04-2004 10:29									#31
	Get a bigger avatar today!

ach!

	09-04-2004 10:35									#32
	Full PM-box? Change here!

I echo others. The fundy's led by what seems to be a terrorist sympathizer, if he's not a terrorist himself, should be crushed. Especially since they are hated by the rest of the Shi'ite population... basically put up another Shi'ite leader while bringing the other down.

	09-04-2004 11:38									#33
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

So far the attacks and protests have relatively few participants, no more than several thousands in each occasion. If we see one million men insurrection against us, then we have decide whether to pull out or to use Hulegu's method.

	09-04-2004 11:42									#34
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Hmm. I suppose it's "romantic" until one of those hundreds of fundies grabs you as a hostage and says he's going to burn you alive if your government doesn't turn tail and run. The "romanticism" kind of goes out of it at the point.

Gatekeeper

	09-04-2004 12:00									#35
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I start to believe that Arabs really deserve Mongolian treatments.

	09-04-2004 12:09									#36
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse Al Sadr does not represent mainstream Iraqi shiite opinion.

That's increasingly not the case. Al Sistani made a point of not condemning him IIRC and the insurgency seems to be growing in popularity every day. In an important development some Sunnis and Shias are ganging up together.

You can pretend that the Iraqis love the US, but most of them hate it - or more accurately hate its policies in the Middle East.

Anyway, there's some big Shia religious festival coming up in a few days - whatever happens there will give a good indication of the way the wind is blowing.

	09-04-2004 12:16									#37
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by Lord Merciless I start to believe that Arabs really deserve Mongolian treatments.

we could genocide them...

	09-04-2004 13:02									#38
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by Agathon That's increasingly not the case.

Speaking from your arse again I see? I posted a poll that was done with more then an adequate sampling.

quote: Al Sistani made a point of not condemning him IIRC and the insurgency seems to be growing in popularity every day. In an important development some Sunnis and Shias are ganging up together. You can pretend that the Iraqis love the US, but most of them hate it - or more accurately hate its policies in the Middle East. Anyway, there's some big Shia religious festival coming up in a few days - whatever happens there will give a good indication of the way the wind is blowing.

You're really rich in B.S.. what is wrong with you? You want the US to get defeated? What is the matter with you?

	09-04-2004 13:08									#39
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Seems like the rebellion is starting to fall apart... some people in this forum will cry because their agenda isn't being accomplished.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tm..._nm/iraq_kut_dc

KUT, Iraq (Reuters) - U.S.-led troops retook control of the eastern Iraqi town of Kut on Friday, witnesses said, two days after Ukrainian forces withdrew from the city center after clashes with Shi'ite militiamen.

Residents said American soldiers were in control of the center of the town, 170 km (105 miles) southeast of Baghdad, and convoys of U.S. armored vehicles were seen on roads to the area.

Reuters television pictures showed the Kut office of radical Shi'ite cleric Moqtada al-Sadr in ruins after coming under attack.

Sadr's followers launched an uprising this week, battling U.S.-led forces in Shi'ite areas across Iraq (news - web sites). One Ukrainian soldier was killed earlier in the week in the fighting in Kut.

	09-04-2004 13:26									#40
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: In one of his speeches (or was it a statement?) he associated himself with Hizbullah and Hamas and supports these two groups. He who associates with them and therefore calls upon the killing of civilians, is a terrorist.

Eh? Agreeing with certain terrorist acts certainly does not make one a terrorist.

quote: He has also called upon his followers to "terrorise the Americans".

Source? That doesn't sound like something Sadr would say (since he keeps ranting about the terrorist Americans, etc.).

quote: Al Sadr does not represent mainstream Iraqi shiite opinion.

He probably represents about a third of the Shia opinion. Much less than Sistani, but still a very significant minority.

	09-04-2004 13:39									#41
	Inflate your Upload Space

well the point is Al sadr and other extremists gain more support every time the coalition kills civilians accidentally in their ops against the terrorists.

	09-04-2004 14:04									#42
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by Ramo He probably represents about a third of the Shia opinion. Much less than Sistani, but still a very significant minority.

No actually I read about 10%.

	09-04-2004 14:30									#43
	Got spare money?

It's not about Al Sadr. He will be replaced and you better believe it.

The US will never stabilize Iraq (the way the want to of course...) as there'll always be a Al Sadr around.

The main worry is that this "uprisings" get more and more organized, and each time, more coalition soldiers die. The prospects are quite scary....

	09-04-2004 14:36									#44
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by Tripledoc The most decent man I saw was our college dorm watchman who was a veteran of the Vietnam War. A black man with the thousand yard stare. He was always there when the cops or the security guards tried to bust someone for something. He drove us on trips to see the nature, to ski, or go waterrafting. A good man.

He didn't touch you in any places that made you feel uncomfortable, did he?

	09-04-2004 15:04									#45
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

We actually are giving them a chance to give up... Kut has been recaptured, and Fallujah will soon fall back to coalition hands. This is pretty much nearing the end of this little unpopular rebellion (hey, most shi'ias didn't want it, 90% didn't).

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tm...id=540&ncid=716

"U.S. troops fanned out across Kut, southeast of Baghdad, after meeting little resistance in the city, witnesses said, in a major foray by the American military into the south, where U.S. allies have struggled to deal with the uprising by the al-Mahdi Army, led by radical Shiite cleric Muqtada al-Sadr.

In Fallujah, Marines stopped offensive operations at noon, while a delegation of sheiks from the city met with Marine commanders, said Lt. Col. Brennan Byrne, commander of the 1st Battalion 5th Marine Regiment.

"I would not describe this as a cease-fire. We are still aggressively defending our positions. However we have ceased offensive operations for now," Byrne said."

	09-04-2004 15:22									#46
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Whatever happens with this shiite uprising is hard to tell already. What really should bother the coalition is the fact that now it doesn't seem like many of the areas outside the dreaded sunni triangle are safe. Prior to the developement of the latest week or so almost all serious trouble has been located in a relatively small area. The coalition has been able to concentrate their force in that area. Now, it's quite possible that the coalition have to be prepared for trouble almost everywhere, spreading their forces thin. This is especially the case if the new iraqi army and police can't be trusted to do the job for the coalition.

Just my two cents

	09-04-2004 16:53									#47
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Giancarlo We actually are giving them a chance to give up... Kut has been recaptured, and Fallujah will soon fall back to coalition hands. This is pretty much nearing the end of this little unpopular rebellion (hey, most shi'ias didn't want it, 90% didn't).

I think you must be one of the most naive people I have ever encountered.

It's all part of the pattern of insurgency.

	09-04-2004 17:11									#48
	Got spare money?

The Western civilians in Iraq say the mood has changed.

The Iraqis said they'd give us a year to fix things, then we had to get out. It's been a year, things aren't fixed, we're not out. Iraq, despite what polls two months ago might have said, is becomming increasingly hostile to us.

Bush blew it. The window of opportunity is closing rapidly. There will be no Western style democracy in Iraq leading to a domino effect . . . or at least not one the U.S. wants.

	09-04-2004 17:19									#49
	Support Apolyton

Apparently one thing they really regret now was disbanding the former Iraqi army. That meant a lot trained military people with a grudge and no longer getting pay or rations. Plus a power vaccuum.

The ambush attacks have shown significant military planning i.e. the people know what they are doing.

	09-04-2004 17:21									#50
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

They could always call the army back. They won't do it though. That would be to admit error and they never make mistakes.

	09-04-2004 17:21									#51
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara The Western civilians in Iraq say the mood has changed. The Iraqis said they'd give us a year to fix things, then we had to get out. It's been a year, things aren't fixed, we're not out. Iraq, despite what polls two months ago might have said, is becomming increasingly hostile to us. Bush blew it. The window of opportunity is closing rapidly. There will be no Western style democracy in Iraq leading to a domino effect . . . or at least not one the U.S. wants.

What chance would a fledgling government have had faced with the continual attacks by car bombers and guerillas? It doesn't take a genius to understand that under the conditions that have existed in Iraq for the past 12 months the country would have fallen apart had the coalition just set up elections and left. Can you, or the insurgents, really be so blind as to not see that? If Sadr and Sistani had really wanted a stable nation safe for his constituents to live in they should have helped the coalition suppress the guerillas 6 months ago.

	09-04-2004 17:24									#52
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by Dr Strangelove What chance . . .

Uhm, did you miss the part about them giving us a year? The Iraqis said, you have 12 months. It's been twelve months. They say it's time to go. There was a window of opportunity, Bush and his people squandered it trying to be politically palatable back home. They cufked up. Now we are facing a growing insurgency.

	09-04-2004 17:28									#53
	Increase the size of your Attachments

But as Doc points out quite rightly - how do you get out now?

??????????????????????????????????????????????????
??????????????????????????????????????????????????
??????????????????????????????????????????????

	09-04-2004 17:39									#54
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Uhm, did you miss the part about them giving us a year? The Iraqis said, you have 12 months. It's been twelve months. They say it's time to go. There was a window of opportunity, Bush and his people squandered it trying to be politically palatable back home. They cufked up. Now we are facing a growing insurgency.

What kind of window is it that contains exploding vehicles? IIRC for the past years hese fellows have been blowing up any facility or group of people perceived as beiing involved in the coalitionefforts to reconstruct Iraq. They've been particularily keen on blowing up queues of innocent people attempting to apply for jobs in the new police and government. They've blown up Iraqis involved in negotiating a new constitution for Iraq. They've blown up facilities under repair. What exactly do you think the people of Iraq had in mind with respect to "fixing things up"? Do they really think it would be desireable for us to just repair their power plants and leave them with no government?

	09-04-2004 17:43									#55
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse But as Doc points out quite rightly - how do you get out now?

The same way as in Vietnam, wait too damn long, let too many people die, and fail in the end anyway.

	09-04-2004 17:46									#56
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by Dr Strangelove What kind of window is it that contains exploding vehicles?

The military asked for half a million men to be able to do its job correctly. Rumsfeld shoved it back in their face saying it was too unimaginative. We have 1/4 the troops in Iraq needed to do the job. On top of that, they abolished the entire army, rather than de-Baathifying it.

Would things be perfect and peachy keen? No. But we'd be a lot futher down the path, and may have generated a lot less hostility.

quote: Do they really think it would be desireable for us to just repair their power plants and leave them with no government?

They had a year to create one. It doesn't take that long. People in bigger countries have done it in less time in the middle of a World War.

	09-04-2004 17:47									#57
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Half Million troops? That's the Vietnam magic number. Give it a couple of years....

	09-04-2004 17:51									#58
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

We are a very impatient people. We don't like waiting seven minutes for a baked potato. What maks you think we're gonna put up with a couple of years of mass insurgency?

	09-04-2004 17:56									#59
	Get a bigger avatar today!

When, in april of 2003, did the iraqi people (and with 'people' I mean the wast majority of the country's population, not some bolshevik avante garde) say they would give the coalition twelve months? I must have missed that...

	09-04-2004 17:57									#60
	Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara They had a year to create one. It doesn't take that long. People in bigger countries have done it in less time in the middle of a World War.

How many of them were facing the hurdle of no experience with Democratic government, no census information, and little in the way of institutions still around from the old regime? Hell it took us longer than a year to create a stable government in the US after kicking the Brits out.