09-04-2004 07:47									#1
	Best Social Engineering: Yes, it's time to answer again Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

There has been some posts and arguements about best social engineering, so now I making another thread.

Please post your favorite social engineering, and then explain why.

Best social engineering (feel free to disagree):

Democracy, Free Market, Wealth, Eudaimonia

For a grand total:

+4 Growth-Big boost to production and pretty much everything

+5 Economy-The best you can get, cash and research up to a maximum. THis makes your economy so good, you can literally buy your way victory in a war, as well as victory its self.

+3 Industry-Combined with the growth, you can literally kill anyone in production

+2 Efficiency-Helps Beauracracy, as well as the economical output. Really useful on higher levels.

-5 Police-Probably why some people hate free markets. Really sucks for the military. My advice to you: Play defensive except for probe teams. As I said earlier, you can buy your way through war, and you can with mind control. Bring out the cash!

-3 Planet-The +5 economy really picks up the tab on this one. Just put clean reactor and hypnotic trance on most units.

-2 Morale-Bad against Psi, but again, use Hypnotic Trance

-2 Support-Use clean reactor, problem solved.

However, by doing a democracy, green, power, and Eudaimonia, you have no disadvantages, and some pretty descent advantages as well.

	09-04-2004 07:49									#2
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I like Demo, Green, Knowledge, Cybernetic personally.

	09-04-2004 09:49									#3
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Democratic, Free Market, Knowledge, Cybernetic (er, network backbone helps)

+5 efficiency
+2 growth (who cares once you've got future societies anyhow)
+2 economy (the critical +1 energy/tile)
+4 research
-1 planet (dream twister)
-2 support (living refinery)
-2 probe (hunter seeker algorithm)
-8 police (ascentic virtues, network backbone, brood pits, psych

	09-04-2004 10:15									#4
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Police State, Green, Power, Cybernetic

	09-04-2004 10:51									#5
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quote: Originally posted by Patashu I like Demo, Green, Knowledge, Cybernetic personally.

I like this one as well. Lots of efficiency and bonus to tech.

	09-04-2004 11:27									#6
	Increase Your PM Length

Depends what I am doing, but if I am feeling belligerent it is really hard to pass up the Human Hive with Police State / Planned / Power / Thought Control. If you have the Clone Factory then this leads to no penalties and good military and intelligence modifiers.

	09-04-2004 11:43									#7
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I prefer Democracy, green, wealth, thought control

yes democracy and thought control seem contradictory, but oh well. I think there was a wonder that eliminated the negative effects of thought control, I like that one.

	09-04-2004 12:06									#8
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Police State, Planned, Wealth (or Power if I get rid of that negative). Thought Control/Cybernetic.

Police State because I don't get negatives. Planned because I don't get negatives. Wealth because it's better to have -1 Econ at HQ than ALL bases. And a tie between TC and Cybernetic because I like the thought of running my cities under my iron thumb....but cybernetic bonuses are more beneficial to me in the long run.

(I'll use Eudaimonia if I'm playing PK simply because its the likely choice)

	09-04-2004 12:09									#9
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident I prefer Democracy, green, wealth, thought control yes democracy and thought control seem contradictory, but oh well. I think there was a wonder that eliminated the negative effects of thought control, I like that one.

The Cloning Vats! Joyous Cloning Vats!

Eliminates the negative effects of Power and Thought Control and puts all of your bases into population boom.
Such a great Project.

Don't ask me why I called them the Clone Factory in an earlier post, its been a long day..

	09-04-2004 12:16									#10
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ahh yes, that is them. I like the video as well One of the better SP videos.

anyways I chose the above choices because I like to field some sort of military. I've never been much of a probe team guy. so I like to keep my morale and police values halfway decent.

	09-04-2004 19:30									#11
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Depends on the faction really. Without factoring in the secret projects, this is my list:

Gaians: Democratic/Green/Knowledge/Cybernetic

Hive: Police State/Planned/Power/Eudaimonia

University: Democratic/Planned/Knowledge/Cybernetic

Morganites: Democratic/Free Market/Wealth/Cybernetic

Spartans: Democratic/Planned/Knowledge/Thought Control

Believers: Fundamentalist/Free Market/Power/Thought Control

Peacekeepers: Democratic/Planned/Knowledge/Eudaimonia

	09-04-2004 22:00									#12
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Azreal's correct, in that what faction you play has deep repercussions on what qualifies as a 'good' SE combo. I don't necessarily agree with all his choices, however. Also, your circumstances in the game also heavily influence what choices are going to provide the most benefit.

Here are some guidelines that never fail:

If you are at peace and can run it, Wealth is the best value SE choice, with Knowledge being the vanilla runner-up. Free Market starts very strong early, but by the time the midgame rolls around and better terraforming options become available, it starts to pall. Stay out of democracy until you're done expanding horizontally. Losing those first 10 minerals in new bases is more significant than it looks.

Here's my 'best' SE picks for each faction. I don't even consider future society, btw. The game should be over by the time you have more than one of these researched.

Gaians: Demo/Planned/Wealth

Extra efficicency lets you reap the benefits of Planned's industry and Growth without losing too much energy to waste.

Hive: Police/Planned/Wealth

This is a no-brainer, really. Hive is made to run Planned/Police, and wealth counteracts the innate economy hit while adding still more industry. Sure, your troops will emerge greener than they otherwise might, but having twice as many and building reinforcements 30% faster more than makes up for it.

University: Democracy/Green/Wealth

Efficiency and Industry, this is a great peacetime research combination. Running Knowledge is also an option, but your probe rating gets sent to the showers, so you'd better have the HSA.

Morgan: Fundy/Green/Wealth

For mid-game conquest, this SE combo is very hard to beat. Wealth gives +1 energy per square, green keeps efficiency high and allows an aggressive conquest, and Fundamentalism and Creches make Wealth's morale hit disappear.

Spartans: Fundy/Planned/Knowledge

This is an interesting choice for Sparta in the early midgame. Running this SE choice, and having a Command Center, all your ground troops are built at Commando morale. One visit to a Monolith, and they're elite. Now go find your neighbors and beat them up.

Believers: Fundy/Green/Wealth

Remember this combo from Morgan? Well, it works for Mimi too. You don't get +1 energy per square, but the industry and easily mitigated morale hit make for a great combo. Really, Miriam is probably the most flexible of all the momentum factions, she can do anything except research.

Peacekeepers: Democracy/Free Market/Wealth

Your bonus talents make a Golden Age population boom a natural deciscion. Divert some of your income to wealth, build hab complexes, and shoot up to 16 population per base.

	10-04-2004 02:40									#13
	Full PM-box? Change here!

I agree with many here...

Demo/Green/Knowledge/Cyber

Most of the time... Usually as Gaia, Uni, or Counciousness... although works good as PKs too.. Other combo that works good is

Demo/Green/Power(Might be wealth... don't remember, but think its power)/Eud

	10-04-2004 03:57									#14
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quote: Originally posted by CEO Aaron University: Democracy/Green/Wealth Efficiency and Industry, this is a great peacetime research combination. Running Knowledge is also an option, but your probe rating gets sent to the showers, so you'd better have the HSA.

Huh? I thought that -2 was as low as Probe could go. I am running a Uni game right now and have a -4 Probe and it still lists only -50% to enemy probe team actions.

	10-04-2004 05:01									#15
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Still says paradigm economy with +8 efficientcy, and starts saying it with 4 or 6... doesn't mean bonus stops increasing... it just doesn't change the -50% part....

	10-04-2004 11:07									#16
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but "paradigm economy" is much looser term than "-50%". "Paradigm Economy" could mean a number of things whereas "+30% industry" for example could only mean one thing. Besides...AFAIK, efficiency is the only rating that has any effect over what's stated in the datalinks, except one's planet rating and psi combat.

	10-04-2004 11:40									#17
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at least in my last game, my research rate was the same as or better using wealth than knowlege. I'm not sure why that was. I'm not a heavy number cruncher, I just choose which is best.

	10-04-2004 11:42									#18
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Fundamentalist Green Knowledge Eudaimonic.
I don't recall using this mix in a game, though, as I'm not sure it fits with any of the stock factions.

	13-04-2004 11:47									#19
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quote: Originally posted by Method but "paradigm economy" is much looser term than "-50%". "Paradigm Economy" could mean a number of things whereas "+30% industry" for example could only mean one thing. Besides...AFAIK, efficiency is the only rating that has any effect over what's stated in the datalinks, except one's planet rating and psi combat.

Is there a way of forcing the program to accept higher SE effect ratings? I was thinking that you could get a -8 POLICE rating with the Data Angels, if you were trying, and a +8 or so EFFICIENCY with the Cybernetic Consciousness. It seems a bit unfair that extreme modifiers don't seem to have much of an effect.

	13-04-2004 14:36									#20
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by Method but "paradigm economy" is much looser term than "-50%". "Paradigm Economy" could mean a number of things whereas "+30% industry" for example could only mean one thing. Besides...AFAIK, efficiency is the only rating that has any effect over what's stated in the datalinks, except one's planet rating and psi combat.

Paradigm economy in game terms means that you can set your energy allocations anyway you like without losing any. Efficiency is used as a variable in at least two calculations, for energy loss and for bureacracy drones. AS you state the higher it is the better for these calculations.

	14-04-2004 00:48									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Trithemius if you were trying...a +8 or so EFFICIENCY with the Cybernetic Consciousness. It seems a bit unfair that extreme modifiers don't seem to have much of an effect.

+11, with democracy, green, knowledge, cybernetic and creches. But even though you _can_...why would you _want_ to? It's not really unfair - just pick another setting.

	14-04-2004 01:23									#22
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Sorry, Method, but I only calculate +9 efficiency.

	14-04-2004 02:04									#23
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I get +11.

CyCon +2
Demo +2
Green +2
Knowledge +1
Cybernectic +2
Creche +2
_______
Total +11
_______

-Jam

	14-04-2004 03:04									#24
	Tired of ads?

Ok so we know what max numbers can be had. But are we all still speculating on their effects, or has anyone did any tests to prove it?

Specifically does a -4 probe or a 5+ efficency have effects beyond what is stated in the SE screen?

	14-04-2004 05:22									#25
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Spamski has it

and AFAIK, the only ones that have effects that go beyond what is stated are efficiency, and planet (your psi combat bonus)

	14-04-2004 11:50									#26
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Well, and probe. Everyone loves the +4 probe bug...

	14-04-2004 12:18									#27
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+4 probe bug? First time I hear of it. Is your probe rating eliminated when you reach +4 or what?

	14-04-2004 12:19									#28
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* Skanky Burns hasn't heard of it either.

	14-04-2004 13:10									#29
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When you reach +4 probe rating, it rolls over to...um...0 I think, or some negative number. This is a problem with the Datajacks, as you get +2 probe and free covert ops centers after Pre-Sentient Algorithms, FORCING you to run Knowledge.

	14-04-2004 13:26									#30
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quote: Originally posted by Patashu When you reach +4 probe rating, it rolls over to...um...0 I think, or some negative number. This is a problem with the Datajacks, as you get +2 probe and free covert ops centers after Pre-Sentient Algorithms, FORCING you to run Knowledge.

Ick!