14-04-2004 01:23									#61
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quote: It is not Orwellian at all, it is only an oath of loyalty hardly extreme. The oath should contain promises never to fight British or allied forces as this apparently is no longer a given.

Is the oath binding? If so, you are limiting freedom of speech and association. While I would not fight British forces, I make take passive or active action to prevent their actions should I disagree with them, for example, anything I can do within my legal rights. For example, lots of balloons with tin foil. Fundamentally, I think patriotism is quite damaging and I always get a little when it is rammed down ones throats. Would one be taught that the British empire was intrinsically good, instead of teaching the facts and allowing one to draw ones own conclusions, leading to a debate on the issue?

Instead of turning the nation into a boot camp, I believe we should increase education scope and spending in areas designed to expand the intellect, for that seems to be the only way to combat the harmful politics of nationalism and the malevolence behind covert totalitarianism. I get a chill up my spine when a nation takes itself too seriously.

quote: just to clarify a couple of things. i don't advocate a ban on immigration, i just think it needs to be much better managed than it is at present, i do think we need immigrants, just not as many as we get currently.

Agreed so far, it needs to be controlled, well managed and sustainable. Those that break the law should be sent swimming (humanely of course ).

quote: i also don't think that 'multi-culturalism' is generally a good thing. 'if you come to england, be english' pretty sums up my views on the subject

I dont advocate culture wars, but integration and not assimilation into a hegemony is the way to go imo. That way, not only do you get the best of both worlds but you avoid alienating the people you should be embracing. The latter certainly isn't an option with people in any greater numbers than isolated cases.

quote: i'm sorry but i'm going to have to call BS here. building more houses, shops, roads etc. is going to benefit the environment

Ah, no hence net benefit. You have X amount of land. 100% of that is currently used for farming. That has a worse effect than 30% of that used for housing, with 70% left to develop naturally. That is what I am saying.

quote: the farmers i know aren't doing it for a laugh. they farm the land and look after the countryside, they maintain the hedgerows for example which contain an enormous amount of plant and animal life. they do make money as well, those that don't go out of business, they support the local economies of much of our country too. to describe farming as 'superfluous' makes you sound very ignorant i'm afraid

But we could turn Britain into one giant hedgerow .

British farming, except the speciality stuff that can't be produced anywhere else (like wendsleydale cheese ), is superfluous because of the amount we could be importing from the third world, leading to cheaper food for us and a better deal for them. Instead we are subsidising ours (and Frances) farmers while those in the third world starve. I don't think that makes sense to me. Speaking in a utilitarian sense, the needs of people who are starving outweigh those of a relatively small number of people who can be found new jobs, while the economy benefits . And ignorant.. it's probably the only economic issue I spent a serious amount of time considering . Hence I used the word superfluous, instead of malevolent.

quote: The thing to ask about immigration is: are you assimilating them into your culture? If the answer is no, then you need to shut it down, because just about everywhere where there are 2 different cultures there is fighting.

A sad situation but not necessarily the case. Intolerance is solved by education, and a reasoned distribution of immigrants to allow for greater integration while still maintaining security and keeping persecution out of the equation.

	14-04-2004 01:27									#62
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quote: Originally posted by Derekrage As a former member of the BNP I had to respond to this.

Hey, it's a small world, isn't it? I might have thrown a brick at you.

quote: What is meant by native Britons is white people who's family have lived here for generations, who all have a common christian and western/european heritage. We have not had large scale immigration for nearly a millenium so do you not agree that a common British culture had emerged and any immigrants that arrived in Britain quickly adopted the "British way of life".

Crap. "British culture" in 1800AD was vastly different from 1100AD, and in 1900AD it was practically unrecognisable from 1800AD. The changes brought about by 50 years of immigration are trivial compared to the internal dynamics already present. Attempts to place a society under a glass dome like a musty old antique are misguided and futile. Embrace the change and stop being so damned timorous.

quote: The problem with the current mass immigration is that most of these people are not being assimilated into our culture it is just like picking a street up out of the middle east and planting it in the middle of one of our cities. This leads to a segragated society and "no white zones" in our cities where people who have lived there all of their lives find that they are no longer able to walk down some streets without fear of being attacked because they are white. We have seen where this can lead with the race riots a few years ago. What is the benifit of multi-culturism? kebabs? I am not claiming that this isn't rascist according to the liberal elite but all multi-culturism has brought is conflict and problems.

Balls. It's given me a lot of good friends, for starters. However I doubt that counts for much, does it?

	14-04-2004 01:32									#63
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quote: Originally posted by Derekrage There are members of the BNP that would like to see a Nazi like party in Britain but I assure you they are a very small minority and there are surely people like them that are members of the 3 main political parties.

The really entertaining problem is that what other political parties would call "renegade lunatic extremists" are called "The National Executive" by the BNP. Tony Lecomber's a nail-bomber, for Christ's sake, to say nothing of the C18 links. They're outright irredeemable scum.

	14-04-2004 01:36									#64
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quote: Hey, it's a small world, isn't it? I might have thrown a brick at you.

quote: The really entertaining problem is that what other political parties would call "renegade lunatic extremists" are called "The National Executive" by the BNP. Tony Lecomber's a nail-bomber, for Christ's sake, to say nothing of the C18 links. They're outright irredeemable scum.

The danger is when people forget that and don't look into the idiocy of their policies, revealing that they are pretty much the same as they were. Look at the councils where they have/had power. Attacks on Muslims are overlooked more, anger has increased, multi-cultural projects (the few integrating efforts there were) were scaled back. No thankyou.

	14-04-2004 02:04									#65
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gee, you must all have a lot of time on your hands, considering this post was only started this afternoon!

Nationalist movements only form when they are needed. There is always the 'sensitive' "Where do you draw the line" question where numbers in immigration are concerned. If the bloody high minded "liberals" got their way (and i fail to understand WHY they want it) then the doors would be completely opened.

I know what i am saying has probably been repeated half a dozen times in this thread, so i will get to the point:-

.. Multicultaralism is a lie used by the Eurocratic Centre Left who feel guilty about Britian's Imperial Past. They think they are "righting the wrongs" of the past and argue that Britain needs immigration. They're excuse is that Britain needs a labour force to sustain our increasingly market driven economy. They say this also has the advantage of increasing diversity..

The only reason to increase diversity is to make this country better for those foreigners who are already here! As well has beeing farcical this is also a poor policy as it actually leads to more tension. (this is true, just can't be bothered to argue it in length.)

Britain does not need immigration to sustain the economy. Low birth rates are a social problem and have been seen before in this country. The governemnt should do what Hitler did (and i am not going to condemn something just because it was done by Hitler), which was to award mothers with "Motherhood Crosses" for maintaining the German population. The problem may or may not sort itself out, but immigration is not the answer. The only problem is, the government think it is, ignoring the catastrophic effect of mass immigration.

Many of you complain about the BNP
I can not reassure you, as i do not know any BNP members (i am a member of the Conservatives).
But for a walk on the wild side, visit the National Front website (lookit up, don't know what url it is), and then you will never moan about the British National Party again.

	14-04-2004 02:12									#66
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quote: Hey, it's a small world, isn't it? I might have thrown a brick at you.

I suppose your one of this people that threatens to burn down BNP members houses and attack their f****** families who have got nothing to do with the BNP.

quote: The really entertaining problem is that what other political parties would call "renegade lunatic extremists" are called "The National Executive" by the BNP. Tony Lecomber's a nail-bomber, for Christ's sake, to say nothing of the C18 links.

That is part of the reason why I left the BNP, however as I said before to say that all members of the BNP are like this is not true.

	14-04-2004 02:16									#67
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quote: Originally posted by josefstalin .. Multicultaralism is a lie used by the Eurocratic Centre Left who feel guilty about Britian's Imperial Past.

No it isn't. It's about treated others as humans and standing together with courage, rather than shrieking and snarling like a whipped dog.

quote: They think they are "righting the wrongs" of the past and argue that Britain needs immigration. They're excuse is that Britain needs a labour force to sustain our increasingly market driven economy. They say this also has the advantage of increasing diversity..

Well Mr Blunkett thinks we need more immigrants. If that displeases you, make more babies, assuming someone wants to **** you.

quote: The only reason to increase diversity is to make this country better for those foreigners who are already here! As well has beeing farcical this is also a poor policy as it actually leads to more tension. (this is true, just can't be bothered to argue it in length.)

Do you remember the 1970's? Before multiculturalism started sifting through to smalltown England. It was ****. Bring on some variety, sez I.

Britain does not need immigration to sustain the economy. Low birth rates are a social problem and have been seen before in this country. The governemnt should do what Hitler did (and i am not going to condemn something just because it was done by Hitler), which was to award mothers with "Motherhood Crosses" for maintaining the German population.
[/QUOTE]

Well I got a cheque for nearly £500 quid towards my daughter's nursery care the other day from the Government. Medals can be inserted up the sender's arse- I'll stick with the cash.

quote: Many of you complain about the BNP I can not reassure you, as i do not know any BNP members (i am a member of the Conservatives). But for a walk on the wild side, visit the National Front website (lookit up, don't know what url it is), and then you will never moan about the British National Party again.

Yes we will. I've been to Stormfront on many occasions.
Until about 1997, the BNP was indistinguishable from the NF. Then an oily veneer of pseudo-respectability was unconvincingly applied, yet it's still run by the old-school Nazis. I won't just moan about the BNP- if they come round my way they'll meet Mr Brick again.

	14-04-2004 02:20									#68
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I live in the South (Brighton) officially a no BNP area. But there are plenty of Skinheads and Foreigners in Brighton.

>CLINGS ON DESPERATE FOR SOME ARDENT GLORY!<
And they live happily side by side!

	14-04-2004 02:20									#69
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I live in the South (Brighton) officially a no BNP area. But there are plenty of Skinheads and Foreigners in Brighton.

>CLINGS ON DESPERATE FOR SOME ARDENT GLORY<
And they live happily side by side!

	14-04-2004 02:21									#70
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quote: Is the oath binding? If so, you are limiting freedom of speech and association. While I would not fight British forces, I make take passive or active action to prevent their actions should I disagree with them, for example, anything I can do within my legal rights. For example, lots of balloons with tin foil. Fundamentally, I think patriotism is quite damaging and I always get a little when it is rammed down ones throats. Would one be taught that the British empire was intrinsically good, instead of teaching the facts and allowing one to draw ones own conclusions, leading to a debate on the issue?

Of course the oath should be binding otherwise whats the point in having it? Anything you do that puts soldiers lives at risk should be punished but I'm not talking about a police state here, I believe you should always have the right to protest against a military action.

I do believe that our imperial history is something to be proud of but education, like you said, should give the facts and allow debate on the subject, it should go into the good sides of Empire, for Britain and the world not go on and on about slavery and how the bad white man subjagated the poor natives.

	14-04-2004 02:21									#71
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Edit- bizarre double post.

	14-04-2004 02:23									#72
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quote: Britain does not need immigration to sustain the economy. Low birth rates are a social problem and have been seen before in this country. The governemnt should do what Hitler did (and i am not going to condemn something just because it was done by Hitler), which was to award mothers with "Motherhood Crosses" for maintaining the German population. The problem may or may not sort itself out, but immigration is not the answer. The only problem is, the government think it is, ignoring the catastrophic effect of mass immigration.

Just awarding motherhood crosses won't work. You'll have to turn the whole society into fascist drones for anybody to actually think having a motherhood cross is a good idea.

Alternatively, if you were desperate to increase the birth rate, you could create more childcare places and pass legislation making raising children and working easier to balance. That would actually be worth something to a normal person, unlike a useless 'motherhood cross'.

	14-04-2004 02:24									#73
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The presence of more than one culture in one place is different from the policy of multiculturalism

The presence is a circumstance which i am happy to live with.

But the policy is a silly interpritation. Why is it that a nearby state school had to forego Easter Celebrations at risk of "offending Muslim children". Why? Time and time again the Muslim communities insist that they are NOT offended (and why should they be offended?), but the Government thinks they know best.

Intergration, yes.
Interference, no.

	14-04-2004 02:26									#74
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about the 'Motherhood Cross' thing which i have been quoted on several times.
It was unclear i know, but that would only need to be undertaken as a desperate measure. The problem will sort itself out i'm sure.

	14-04-2004 02:26									#75
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"Fundamentally, I think patriotism is quite damaging and I always get a little when it is rammed down ones throats"

That explains a few things. You don't want the best for this isle do you?

"You have X amount of land"

It's incorrect to think of it in that way, especially with regards housing.

"Instead we are subsidising ours (and Frances) farmers while those in the third world starve. I don't think that makes sense to me. "

Same here.

"it's probably the only economic issue I spent a serious amount of time considering "

So why the **** are you posting links to Economics For Idiots to someone like me who's graduating with a 2:1 in Economics in two months time

I don't see the consistency in your position Whaleboy. First you say you don't understand patriotism/nationalism - then you go on to say immigration is best for our country so we should have more of it!

Own up - are you a flag waver or not? If you are, then well , but if not, why the hell are you advocating immigration in order to aid our country? You don't care about the state of it after all, do you?

	14-04-2004 02:28									#76
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quote: Originally posted by josefstalin But the policy is a silly interpritation. Why is it that a nearby state school had to forego Easter Celebrations at risk of "offending Muslim children". Why? Time and time again the Muslim communities insist that they are NOT offended (and why should they be offended?), but the Government thinks they know best.

OK- which act of the Government was it that stopped the Easter celebration?

	14-04-2004 02:28									#77
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quote: Of course the oath should be binding otherwise whats the point in having it? Anything you do that puts soldiers lives at risk should be punished but I'm not talking about a police state here, I believe you should always have the right to protest against a military action.

I am a writer, and a pacifist at that, so supposing my views caused a major impedence (through no illegal actions) of my own, would I still be forbidden? I don't think the military should be a special case, if I vandalise a military base, that should be treated no differently to vandalising a fence, unless national secrets were compromised (a whole new can of worms).

quote: I do believe that our imperial history is something to be proud of but education, like you said, should give the facts and allow debate on the subject, it should go into the good sides of Empire, for Britain and the world not go on and on about slavery and how the bad white man subjagated the poor natives.

Selected facts? I think first and second hand evidence from all concerned, victims and victors alike, with debates on either side should form the basis of humanities education. I am fortunate in having benefited from such an approach.

	14-04-2004 02:32									#78
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quote: Originally posted by Derekrage That is part of the reason why I left the BNP, however as I said before to say that all members of the BNP are like this is not true.

Uh-huh. So, despite not being nasty racist types, they're willing to overlook the fact that their leaders and policy-makers are?

Those BNP conferences must be great. "Baaaa-aaaaa! Baaaa-aaaaa! Baaaaa-aaaaaa!" So are they callously indifferent, evil or just plain ****ing stupid?

	14-04-2004 02:33									#79
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@ lazarus

it is not the government who are DIRECTLY responsible for this decline in society, but it is the New Labour types who inforce it and the Government who fail to do anything to condemn the farce

	14-04-2004 02:38									#80
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quote: I am a writer, and a pacifist at that, so supposing my views caused a major impedence (through no illegal actions) of my own, would I still be forbidden? I don't think the military should be a special case, if I vandalise a military base, that should be treated no differently to vandalising a fence, unless national secrets were compromised (a whole new can of worms).

If by vandalising a military base you are putting our soldiers lives at risked then you should be given a much harsher sentence, if not then you should just be charged with vandalism and maybe trespassing on military property.

And a pacifist? Then we are from the opposite sides of the fence. My job was war.

	14-04-2004 02:39									#81
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Oh, and screw 'oaths of loyalty'. No way Britain should have to put up with fascist crap like that.

Ditto for flags in classrooms.

	14-04-2004 02:40									#82
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quote: That explains a few things. You don't want the best for this isle do you?

Strawman. I want what's best for all, including this nation, and I do not differentiate. I do not want something that is intrinsically bad for this nation. That expresses itself in my belief that war is not the answer, but it also manifests itself in tolerance of all nations, and a view that Britain is not somehow better than other nations or cultures.

quote: It's incorrect to think of it in that way, especially with regards housing.

Thinking of land regarding housing is probably the best way to do it, unless you want a return to the '50s .

Oh wait....

quote: I don't see the consistency in your position Whaleboy. First you say you don't understand patriotism/nationalism - then you go on to say immigration is best for our country so we should have more of it!

I understand it, hence I disapprove. Believe it or not I used to be a conservative (then I found love ). Immigration is best for this country, but I don't see how being non-patriotic means being against your country. Perhaps you could explain my error.

quote: Own up - are you a flag waver or not? If you are, then well , but if not, why the hell are you advocating immigration in order to aid our country? You don't care about the state of it after all, do you?

Retract your strawman .

	14-04-2004 02:41									#83
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Fine, no oath of loyalty, no welfare or support for you. If you don't want to give to this country and its people, why should you expect to take?

	14-04-2004 02:45									#84
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quote: Uh-huh. So, despite not being nasty racist types, they're willing to overlook the fact that their leaders and policy-makers are?

Lazarus, does it matter? I know many labour supporters who consider Blair a war criminal yet they will still vote labour in the next election. It is important to understand that these people believe in what they are doing they are willing to go through social isolation and discrimation because of their political beliefs. They are idelogues and nationalists they think that the BNP's policies are best for Britain, they are not simply out to 'get rid of all the foreigners'.

	14-04-2004 02:46									#85
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"Immigration is best for this country"

But you aren't a patriot so why do you even care?

(There is substantial evidence that immigration to developed countries harms the country back home more than it helps us. Brain drain (and hence decreased investment in education*), etc, dragging developing nations' incomes lower than they would otherwise have been.)

* Why invest in education if your workers piss off to developed nations.

In fact, if your aim is to sincerely want the best for developing nations and their people, your best policy would be to ban immigration. There would be a greater incentive for the developing nation to educate its people (they won't piss off as soon as the investment has been made), and it would retain its workers of prime age.

Whaleboy, you are not a dumb lad so use that "intellect" to see other people's points too. I agree that immigration poses some advantages but you have to agree too that there is limit - let's call it X - where immigration ceases to become beneficial. Just because my X is lower than yours, does not make me a racist or whatever. I just don't think we need more immigrants. A more flexible domestic labour force would be a first best policy.

	14-04-2004 02:48									#86
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quote: And a pacifist? Then we are from the opposite sides of the fence. My job was war.

It seems we're just going to have to agree to disagree. I respect your ability to make your points but I cant see this debate going anywhere useful. What was your job exactly?

	14-04-2004 02:57									#87
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quote: It seems we're just going to have to agree to disagree. I respect your ability to make your points but I cant see this debate going anywhere useful. What was your job exactly?

I agree to disagree, I'm off to bed now anyway. As to what I did I was a soldier with 1 Para (The Parachute Regiment - 1st Battalion) I served in Sierra Leone then Northern Ireland anyway I rspect the fact that you attacked the BNP's policies and not simply throw insults them

	14-04-2004 02:57									#88
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quote: Fine, no oath of loyalty, no welfare or support for you. If you don't want to give to this country and its people, why should you expect to take?

Paying taxes is enough. Oaths reek of nationalism and militarism. It's like some sort of baptism, a meaningless gesture of 'belongness' that'll be as alienating as it is useless.

I'm happy to be loyal to the state. The nation, on the other hand, can go and hang itself.

	14-04-2004 03:05									#89
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quote: But you aren't a patriot so why do you even care?

See above.

quote: In fact, if your aim is to sincerely want the best for developing nations and their people, your best policy would be to ban immigration. There would be a greater incentive for the developing nation to educate its people (they won't piss off as soon as the investment has been made), and it would retain its workers of prime age.

I somehow doubt the welfare of the third world is your motivation . Nonetheless, it's not the entire third world on our doorstep, you'll tell us all how they are immigrants of a few specific sources .

quote: Whaleboy, you are not a dumb lad so use that "intellect" to see other people's points too. I agree that immigration poses some advantages but you have to agree too that there is limit - let's call it X - where immigration ceases to become beneficial.

I do agree and I respect the fact that you have an opinion, and I take it on board and understand it, it's just that I don't agree with it. I see a debate as more of a joust than a search for the holy grail. As for your point, yes I do agree that point exists but I don't think reaching that point is close at hand, and I did not call you a racist in so many words .

	14-04-2004 03:08									#90
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quote: I rspect the fact that you attacked the BNP's policies and not simply throw insults them

Thanks! I don't think either side firing ad hominems at each other is going to do anything, except negate the right of each side to be taken seriously. The BNP do have an argument that I feel hasn't been addressed, as people, many of whom with the capacity to engage in a constructive debate are too quick to fling insults, which, all joking aside, does no-one any good.

An impressive tour of duty