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Trip
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Hunt Valley
Apr 2002
time: 00:35
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If we hope to march into Webringen at some point in this game, we will need to have a cohesive and well-prepared plan in place early on. The greatest way to botch an operation is with not enough planning and time dedicated to figuring out all the i's that need to be dotted and t's that need to be crossed.
Initial Planning - What needs to be done NOW
First off, there are things that we need to determine right now in order to set the stage for a more focused buildup and loftier goals that are to come in the near future.
First - Determining When to Attack/Research Restrictions
A lot of the timing of our invasion depends on what techs each civ has and when. Clearly, the best time for an invasion is before our enemy acquires Railroads and at a time when we have Cavalry. Ideally, GWT would not have Cavalry, Navigation or Magnetism in addition to these requirements, but we can work around the possibility of them having these techs.
With the time picked, what do we need? For a Cav pre-RR invasion we will need Galleons to transport troops, and probably Frigates to protect our landing force as well as to take out possible GWT picket boats. Our land invasion force should consist of a mix of Cavalry, Muskets and Cannons, with Cavalry making up the vast majority of the force.
These requirements together basically mean we need the entire Medieval tech tree completed. The most important techs are the path up to Magnetism and the path up to Military Tradition. All other techs are secondary to these ultimate goals.
Assuming we do 8-turn techs all the way up to Magnetism it will take a total of 32 turns. 8 turns for Astronomy, 8 turns for Chemistry, 8 turns for Magnetism. Currently our Golden Age is planned for turn 223, which is about 50 turns from now. This gives us ~18 turns to build Frigates in our coastal cities with Harbors in preperation for the big bang.
Second - Deciding What the Trigger Will Be
Once we know the requirements for our invasion, we have to determine the trigger - the point at which we know to fire our awesome war machine. This trigger should probably be a certain number of units, as we have the greatest control over that.
In the chatroom I threw out the tenative numbers of 80 Cavalry, 20 Muskets and 20 Cannons to land with. I believe this is a reasonable figure and with it we should be able to defeat if not destroy GWT with a bit of luck (and reinforcements... :evilgrin).
In order to carry this force of 120 units that will require 30 Galleons (each with a capacity of 4 units). Galleons we can upgrade from Galleys and Caravels, so getting enough of these shouldn't be a problem. Frigates will be more of the issue, as we cannot upgrade these and have to build their 60 shields from scratch. We will probably want 15 Frigates in addition to the 30 Galleons... 5 Frigates to defend the motherfleet and another 10 to take down GWT pickets (which we will assume they will have).
How to Achieve Our Buildup Goal
The 15 Frigates will require 900 shields in our coastal cities with Harbors. This means we probably need more Harbors.  We have quite a bit of time between 32 turns from now and the start of our GA, and to get 2 Frigates out of each city in this time means an average of just over 6 SPT in each city we have building them. We should be able to do this relatively easily.
For upgrades, I will assume that we will have Leonardo's Workshop, which AP should be able to complete on turn 216, which is around 40 turns from now, about 8 or 10 turns before our GA. Unless GWT gets a leader, we ought to be able to get it. If we do not, that will make things much more difficult.
As most of our Galleons will need to be upgraded, I will assume we will end up having 10 Galleys to upgrade and 20 Caravels. We currently have 3 Galleys (oh boy!) which means we have a further 1,220 shields left to produce in ALL of our coastal cities between now and when we start building Frigates (32 turns). The upgrade costs are 700g for this component of our military.
80 Cavalry totals 6,400 shields. We currently have 12 Knights, which are 840 shields which in total upgrade to Cav for a cost of 120g. If we upgrade the remaining 68 Cavalry from Horsemen it will require 2,040 shields to be built and 3400g to upgrade. For the Cavalry the total cost is 3,520g for upgrades.
For Muskets we already have 17 NMs. 3 more NMs is 90 shields, and the upgrade cost to 60s Muskets is 30g each for a total of 600g to upgrade.
Finally the Cannons. We currently have 12 Catapults. 8 more is 160 shields, and the total upgrade cost for 20 is 10g each for 200g total.
Therefore the totals:
2,120s in coastal cities (900 with Harbors) + 2,290 shields from our inland cities (all of that but 160 with Barracks). Total shields is 4,410 shields in the next 50 turns (or we can drag it into our GA if we want).
Assuming an average of 180 SPT in all of our cities during this time, we will easily reach this mark before our GA begins (just under 25 turns, in fact). This means we can dedicate ~half our production between now and our GA to military with the other half going to infrastructure. Obviously, there are many things that this war will require that will suck up more shields, including many Harbors in coastal cities and new Barracks in inland ones. But the point remains that we should easily be able to complete this task force with a rather mediocre estimate of our future SPT... I was able to reach 200 SPT 15 turns from now (~5 turns before we even finished the HG).
Total costs to upgrade all units in gold: 5,020 gold with Leo's. This figure doubles to 10,040 without it, which is why it's so pivotal that we get this wonder.
In summary, our economy should be able to handle these requirements (and a bit more, for a small home defense), but there's little time for building useless improvements, Unis or Banks. Especially in the coastal cities finding enough shields is tight... we don't really have any big shield producers on the coast so every last shield will be valuable in going towards Harbors and boats.
Following this is more operational planning stuff, which will come later, when my brain recharges from all this number-crunching.
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Trip
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Hunt Valley
Apr 2002
time: 00:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Master Zen
I would suggest not to depend on Leo's so much. GWT can snag it with a lucky leader, or if its doing a palace prebuild somewhere. We definitaly have a shot at getting it, but so does GWT. |
The problem is that the majority of our buildup depends on upgrades, which costs a lot of gold.
Fortunately, however, by the time I got to turn 186 (15 turns from now) in E_T's latest sim, I had over 1800g, was at 50% science, maintaining 8-turn techs quite regularly and a +138 GPT surplus (and growing).
Assuming an increasing cashflow of that sort should give us barely more than the 10,000g necessary to complete the plan without Leo's within the time necessary. The extra gold with Leo's help helps us rush Harbors, Barracks, CHs and even Markets or Aquaducts where necessary. We'll be shovelling in a load of dough for other purposes.
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GodKing
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Detroit
Feb 2002
time: 00:35
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You don't need to send over everything at once. Send over 2/3 in the first wave, and take a coastal city. As the transports go back for the second wave, reinforcemtns will hopefully let us actually fill up all the boats. Send over many defensive units in the first wave, and let them break their forces on our wall. Then, send over the offensive forces, and kill them. Also, first and second wave do not necessarily have to land at the same place. Imagine, a force of 30 riflemen, & 20 cav landing, taking a few cities and then holding for reinforcements. As they shift their armies to push us off the beaches, a force of 10 riflemen, 10 cannon and 60 cav lands behind them.
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Arnelos
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of the Free World
Sep 2002
time: 00:35
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Ok, I brought up in chat yesterday that I thought a landing near GWT's capital area to be unlikely to succeed because they'd probably spot our invasion fleet inbound and then could just wall off all possible LZ's each turn with a unit wall.
The superior strategy, it seems to me, is to land near Ruhrpott with the entire force and take out the FP first. Not only is the FP unreplaceable and we can devastate the productive and commerical capacity of half of their empire in a single stroke, but defending all of the coastal tiles near Ruhrpott and having pickets off of all of the naval approach routes would be FAR FAR more difficult for GWT.
Ultimately, our goal should be to actually MAKE a landing before they realize where our fleet is or, hopefully, before they even realize we're on approach with such a fleet. The costs of the situation being otherwise is to have our 40 galleons just sitting off of a section of coast which is unit walled and having to both split up the force and move in various directions in an attempt to actually MAKE a landing at all. While we're doing that, GWT has time to send their entire military to meet us when we land even if they can't block every single LZ.
We're FAR better off trying to catch them by surprise, even if it's a non-optimal landing area. The Ruhrpott area makes sense because it's both very difficult to defend from the sea and it offers an excellent first target capable of doing significant permanent damage to their empire.
The ultimate objective, regardless of where we land, of course is their main produtive core with their wonder-producing cities and the bulk of their manufacting and commercial capacity. Losing their FP core will hurt, but it's their main core that contains the crown jewels of their empire. The point is that if we can take out the FP (and potentially FP core) quickly, we can then recuperate our forces and knock out any counter-attackers (if we have sufficient cannon and musket support, this will not be all that difficult) before moving on their main core.
I'd expect the main battles of the war to be fought in the narrow area of land where the GWT-Firaxis war was fought... but this time it would be us fighting West to East on a mission to destroy the GWT Empire rather than GWT fighting East to West on a mission to destroy Firaxis.
The key will be MAKING a landing with our whole force in one location before GWT has a chance to block LZ's and force us to divide our forces for multiple landings of opportunity.
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E_T
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Orlando, Florida
Mar 2001
time: 00:35
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My main objectives is this:
- Take GWT down several notches. If they still survive, then as long as they have a large amount of rebuilding to do, that is o.k.
- Make CGN burn their GA in this war, with them helping as much as they can with their UU.
- Make CFC burn their GA in this war, with them helping as much as they can with their UU.
- Make GCA burn their GA in this war, with them fighting us and CFC with their UU. Especially while they are in their rebuilding phase in the old CGN lands.
- Try to make the most out of our GA while getting ready for this war.
- Domination is a OPTION, but it's also risky, because of the possibility of our alliance falling apart from it. The destruction of GWT's FP, Pyraminds/Colossus & Capitol Cities will be more than sufficient to insure them not being a long term tech threat for some time. Anything else is "Icing on the cake", as long as we do as much of a raze fest as is possible.
- Attempt to entirely destoy GCA (with CFC help).
E_T
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Aidun
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The Hague, the capital of the civilized world
Nov 2002
time: 06:35
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When it will come to war, and it will come, it will be a total war and nothing less.
ET is true. We have to keep in mind that after the WW I, as it will be called later on, there will be another great war.
It is nessecary for our survival that BOTH CFC and GCA spend their GA in this coming war
For any of you who have analysed the coarse of WW II and it's relation to the Cold War, this might sound familiar. I don't know if it is true, but it is said by some historians, and I believe that there might be some truth in it, because it's a masterpiece of strategical insight and as much as a big guess for with they had a the guts. What I'm talking about is the theory that the Western Allies have tried to let the Axis weaken the U.S.S.R. more than what was good for the final victory of the Allies, East and West. Because the historians say that the U.S. were already aware that sooner or later, after WW II was won by the Allies there would be a confrontation between the U.S. and the U.S.S.R. The weaker the U.S.S.R. would be by that time, the better for the U.S..
Whether this is true or not, that does not matter here, is that a lesson can be drawn from it that is useful in our situation. IF we are going to win the war against GWT, our alliance with CFC will not last long anymore and CFC will strike when we are at weakest, because that is their only reasonable chance on victory.
It is for this reason that dominition is not an option for us, because we will be backstabbed by CFC as soon as they see it happen. We have to weaken GWT and GCA so much that they no longer be of any threat towards us, and as soon as that is accomplished concentrate on the final war with CFC.
I have said at the beginning of this post that the war with GWT will be a total war. With this I mean that in this war the entire country will be in the service of the war. This includes that our government of the team has to be designed for one single purpose: the most effective leadership possible, but also a legitimate form as I explained in this thread. Such a government should be authoritarian with a dominant rule of those responsible for military and interior planning: military and production. We have to discuss and none should be scared to make his remarks or do a little step back form his position, if our current government type and underlying structure does accomplish to the remarks I above referred to.
Furthermore total war means that all resources and industry will be in the service of the war. The one wo is most succesful in doing this will finally win the war, because a total war is a war about who has the longest breath: who can last longer than the other. Analyses of WW I and II have learned polticians and military staffs of today that the size of the production capacity is finally the key to success. Those who can outproduce the enemy in equal military units will win. We thus have to make sure that we have (a) enough resources like iron and saltpetre and (b) our production optimalized.
Only by having met these conditions we can win, anything else will finally result in a devastating defeat.
I do refer to the real world a lot in this advice to our rulers and my fellow members, but I have played civ 3 PTW enough to know that it exactly matches the real world on this point.
Please take this advise serious.
Aidun
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13-04-2004 09:49
) I ever saw in this forum to NOT send a single penny to CGN anymore.
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