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WarriorPoet
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Do we all get the save files? I'd like a look at the strategic situation, and as a new member, who should I be focusing on learning about? Vox or GOW?
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asleepathewheel
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listening too long to one song
Mar 2002
time: 00:35
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If you want the save on arrival, contact vondrack of Legoland.
The world currently seems to be US/RP (our vassal) and possibly Gow (we can't always read them accurately haha) vs Lego/Vox (their vassal) and ND (whom used to partner with GoW but seems to be leaning heavily towards lego at the moment)
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Arrian
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Kneel before Grog!
Jul 2001
time: 00:35
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Vox is largely a non-factor (especially now that their industrial free tech has been shopped around). RP is even more of a rump state, occupying Vox's former land to our north.
GoW, ND, and Lego are major powers. We are too, at least economically, but in terms of raw power we're running 4th. That includes allowance for growth of GoW/ND, as they expand & build hospitals. We have a tight build and have long ago come close to maximizing our useable tiles. Hospitals will not help much, and we've no room to expand into. So, while we are often 2nd or 3rd in key stats, as time passes we will likely drop towards 4th.
Lego is the favorite to win. They own their own continent, though they shared it with Vox (Vox is to Lego what RP is to us), so they are fairly secure. They are huge, and populous (Pyramids). They *just* finished their GA.
After Lego it's either GoW or ND. I usually view ND as the solid #2, but GoW actually has some advantages IIRC (for now, higher pop, and of course Leonardos). Once ND finishes resettling RP's land and pumping up their pop, they will be #2... but it's a pretty decent drop from Lego. The worrisome bit is that ND has said several times that they aren't really interested in taking Lego down. GoW thinks they can be convinced otherwise, but I'm not so sure.
GoW is decent, though I'm not real impressed with their economy. Leos helps make up for that. They are our main hope for an alliance vs. Lego, unfortunately (our relations have been rocky in the past, and I'm pretty sure it's safe to say that we don't trust them, nor they us).
Of course, in order to hit Lego, GoW would need to feel secure with ND, and vice-versa. This also plays into Lego's hands. GS can attack Lego, but at this point that will require marines (a LOT of marines) and we cannot have the element of surprise: Lego has a line of picket ships set up to see any approaching assault (and they have Magellans too, which sucks). If we have marines, others will or will shortly, and our vulnerability to marine attack from GoW or ND is huge, given that our west coast is reachable in a single turn of movement from the east coast of Bob in some places. So that's always a worry.
Winning will not be easy. On the upside, we just finished ToE and will be getting Hoover (ok, that's mostly denial value). Our other still-functioning wonders include the Colossus, Copernicus and Newton. Hence the tech lead. 
-Arrian
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DeepO
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supporting Candle'Bre
Jan 2002
time: 06:35
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Major hangover here... sorry if I won't comment much at this moment, and just play the save, and send it forward.
CH, you're right about the need for a war plan, and yes, rifles are next in Tempest. I'm planning on doing an analysis and see what we can build where, and what kind of force we're expecting in 30-35 turns (which will have to be the invasion date, as later our disadvantage will only grow). But not today...
Arrian, I agree with most of what you said, except that GoW is not weak, or bad in economy. They're very close to us, and are collecting more culture then us...
WP, I sent you the save. Password is OneToRule. Please ask Vondrack for regular saves...
Damn, my head is killing me 
DeepO
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DeepO
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supporting Candle'Bre
Jan 2002
time: 06:35
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Start
- ND sends an accepted offer for 150 gold. Accepted
- Cyclone builds worker, starts worker.
- Send Electricity accepted to RP
- Someone (Lego?) have discovered Corporation. The cost went down considerably. ND may have gotten it as well, don't know... don't want to calculate it today...
- RP have moved their sea wall out of the way! That was not the plan... I'm filling it again with workers
- 900 gold, 60%,487 bpt, 69 gpt
- 41 workers
Moves
In general, the specific worker moves are not covered anymore, it gets too tedious. Only important stuff is mentioned.
- RR on D-ville 2. factory in 3.
- RR on El Paso 7, 8, 89, 9, 3, 32
- RR on San Antonio 89, 8, 7, 1.
- RR on Monterrey11 (2 workers)
- Galley2 moves 6669. All of Antarctica spotted, returns home.
- our Southern most galley Moves 888, returning home.
- our Western most galleon moves 7777. Will return towards Stormia via the North. more pickets spotted of both Lego as GoW.
- Northern most galley moves 966
- last Galleon (West of Inchon) moves 9699.
workforce shuffles
- Cyclone set back to ideal pattern (needs this every turn).
- Tornado and Sufa swap coast and sea tiles, for +1bpt.
Current Builds
Eli : harbor in 10
Inchon : Harbor in 3
WoC : Iron Works in 8
Inchoff : market in 17
Diss : factory in 3
Santa Ana : factory in 16
Blizzard : factory in 7
Monsoon : factory in 19
Arashi : factory in 7(one shield short on eta -1)
WW : factory in 14
Tempest : factory in 3
SS: worker in 1
Hurricane : factory in 4
OG : factory in 17
EotS : Hoover Dam in 7
BB : factory in 6
Cyclone: worker in 1
Tornado : factory in 5 (one more shield for eta -1)
Typhoon : factory in 9
Sufa : factory in 23
Other
- #3 in Mfg Goods. GoW has gained on us again.
- Lego doesn't have Sanitation yet. Vox neither. Further all techs have been distributed
- turn will be sent in 5 minutes.
- with shuffling, we're at 489 bpt and 68 gpt (60%).
Next Turn
DeepO
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DeepO
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supporting Candle'Bre
Jan 2002
time: 06:35
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Nice to see you're picking up diplo with GoW, CH. We will definately need more of that soon...
As to analysis: I'm starting on it, but I'm not feeling well... apparantly my hongover of yesterday was not that much a hangover, as general illness... a bit of a fever, and a cold. Nothing too serious, but it's hard to concentrate.
Very roughly, I've been looking at some numbers, and it doesn't seem that good for us: once factories and Hoover is finished, we'll have 9-10 cities capabable of 40 spt or more in mobilization, 6 of those able to get 60 spt. We will nowhere get enough spt for 1-turn tanks at size 12... but 2-turn, or 3-turn tanks are nice as well.
Very roughly, I guess we'll need at least 15 turns after tanks to have a decent enough force ready (nearing 100 tanks), but part of that can be built when we're already under way with our invasion, especially if we're not allowed to galley-chain. Transports, artillery and defenders will not be a problem, these will be done before we get to tanks and marines.
I'm going to check whether sacrificing pop in some cities can't give us a few supercities which can do 1-turn tanks, or at least 1-turn marines, we'll need a couple of hospitals, but if a city is producing 88 spt (like EotS in Mobilization would be), it is still producing 2-turn tanks... that's a terrible waste of shields.
Oh, BTW, since when would galley chaining be a problem? We did that during the RP-war, and nobody complained. I'm not going to say we need exploits to win, but why would that be an exploit? It costs you more transports to get a job done, but for the extra shields and upkeep, you gain mobility. Sorry, but I don't consider that an exploit, but advanced play. Unless someone tells me not to use it, I wouldn't dream of leaving it out.
DeepO
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DeepO
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supporting Candle'Bre
Jan 2002
time: 06:35
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I don't agree... but if that's the framework we'll play in, we'll just adjust our plans. No big deal.
Just for the record, a few reasons why chaining can't be compared to teleportation:
- the first batch of transports aproach land just as non-chaining transports do. If your defense is good, knocking these out will be easier as there won't be that many transports as when all of them come together in one bunch
- chaining requires you to defend a chain, any ship lost in the middle will break the chain.
- marines to capture a city, and RR to move inland is just the same in chaining or non-chaining ploys. The 'problem' is in capturing a city and moving a large numbers of troops in, not in how these get transported over the seas.
- Without chaining, it takes ages to reinforce a naval expedition, making them extremely hard to perform.
- infinite movement exists for land transport(RRs), air transport(rebase of planes, unit transport between airports), and for naval transport by chaining. So what is it that makes one of those three "completely past the scope of the designers" if the others are written explicitely into the game?
- chaining exists since Civ 2 (Maybe 1 even, but I'm only using it since 2). If it was a problem, it would have been easy to patch in the past 10 years. Most other problems were fixed, and these were in many cases not so easy to solve
I'm sorry, but I can understand why anybody that was once the 'victim' of chaining screams, I can not see why others have to rule age-old tactics out of the game because they don't like them. That being said, I'll shut up, and just use less transports, and more tanks when planning our invasion force 
DeepO
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DeepO
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supporting Candle'Bre
Jan 2002
time: 06:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Trip
Transporting by air has it's own issues. |
of course, but so does chaining... exactly my point.
quote:
Look at it this way. A successful chain + a number of combat Settlers (quite a lot, I admit) can bring any civ to its knees in a single turn. A few Marines, a few Cavalry, a few Settlers and a lot of Transports can tear the heart out of a civ like nobody's business. |
Well... is there any difference in chaining or not? Without a chain, you can tear apart any civ with enough units and combat settlers. Again, this is a problem of RRs and how combat works, and it doesn't matter one bit how long those units have been sailing the seas... it's only more apparent as in our preliminary plans, we are not going to rip apart Lego in one turn, if we would we don't even need chaining. It's because we believe the war will take a lot longer that we need chaining for easy reinforcements, not for shock tactics. Those are just a matter of having enough tanks, and settlers.
But I'll await the public thread. No need to argue too much here 
DeepO
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WarriorPoet
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My two cents:
Would it be better to have a mixed force of artillery, infantry and tanks?
Land a sizeable force in a defensable position near a crucial coastal city containing infantry and artillery. Absorb his military, then land the tanks?
Fight like a defensive war, only in reverse, where you are forcing him to have the higher casualties and slowly progress your troops and strangle him city by city.
I may be wrong, but in many of those cities where you can only build one tank per 3 turns, you could also build infantry or artillery in one turn right?
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asleepathewheel
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listening too long to one song
Mar 2002
time: 00:35
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I don't know DeepO
To me its just a finer control of the mechanics, something that better players do for finer control of micromanagement. I don't know why its cheating or whatnot, especially when the wonder implications are available to all.
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WarriorPoet
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F1 exploit???
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DeepO
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supporting Candle'Bre
Jan 2002
time: 06:35
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In some instances you can check, or at least have circumstantial evidence that others have used it before. AFAIK, no wonders completed the moment they were discovered (ToE was the first), but that could be a sign. We haven't spotted any new units the moment they were discovered, which doesn't mean they didn't exist.
(BTW: mass-upgrading units when discovering a new unit is an exploit, as it upgrades units with no movement points left, and gives them full movement the same turn. We didn't do this at one time, when we could have).
buildings coming on-line: Lego could have completed factories the moment they discovered Inuds, but we didn't spot it. unis with education the same...
There are methods to check for this, however we never checked as it was so obvious everybody used it. Or could use it.
Oh, where we did gain from it? First thing I remember was ending our granary the moment we discovered pottery. We did hack into the queue a couple of times during the Voxian war, to rush or short-rush walls and units (as we didn't have any money at the end of turns). Also, we changed quite a few builds during building, to spot where the immortals were landing... If Vox didn't played their first turns so badly, we would have needed this to win. Now, it was one of the reasons why we didn't lose a single city in that war.
After that, we did change a couple of builds with F1, but I don't think we hacked into the build queue again (I'm not sure). It didn't give us much advantage anyway, I can't remember we had such precisley timed prebuilds, but I can be wrong.
DeepO
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WarriorPoet
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Yes, this was fixed.
You can upgrade units with no movement via the shift+U, but they still loose their movement for that turn.
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16-04-2004 17:07
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