19-04-2004 03:26									#1
	Incas - a bit lame? Enter the AD-FREE zone

These guys have a problem, IMV.

The way to play any civ is to maximise on their traits. Expansionist civs should send out a bunch of scouts to grab huts and make all the early contacts to get that ancient era tech lead - and hopefully get a 2nd settler or city.

However, the Chasqui Scout is an expensive little bugger which gets in the way of your REX and offers a rather marginal benefit if you're not on a young and large-landed planet.

If you don't build them you've lost out on both the expansionist trait and the UU, and if you do build them you're behind on granary, settlers, MP's and workers - and lose out on the agricultral trait in the opening stage of the game.

	19-04-2004 03:52									#2
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Cort Haus:

The trade off is that you have a scout that can hold its own against the barbs and can knock off a settler team or two with a little luck, or pillage a few tiles to disrupt other civ's REX (which also makes them misdirect their building priorities) For a builder; this unit has minimal benefits; for a warmonger it has infinite opportunities for mayhem.

	19-04-2004 03:55									#3
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Good point, MB. I was looking from a builder's perspective. The warmonger has better use for it.

	19-04-2004 08:50									#4
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Jag Warrior has the same stats but is cheaper at 15. The Impi has the same cost but has better defence at 2. The only advantage of the CS over these units then is its ability to run across mountains and hills (what about forests, jungles, etc? - civlopaedia doesn't mention this).

I agree with CH - it seems too expensive compared to similar units, though as MB says, when handled well its use as a military unit could be pretty powerful.

	19-04-2004 09:47									#5
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As of late, I have been more and more inclined to choose the Inca as a civ.

I play on Regent/Monarch. At this level, I almost always get a settler/city from a goodie hut. Additionally, after I have built 2 CS, I then have a scout and 2 CS running around getting contacts and popping goodie huts that frequently end up as techs.

The agricultural trait speaks for itself. However, in all of my games that I have taken the Incas, I have not had any bonus food tiles anywhere near my capital, making the ideal 4-turn pump impossible. Not that big of a deal when I have a 20 shield scout that I can slip into the build queue to keep my population up.

	19-04-2004 11:37									#6
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One of the major boons of being the Inca is the Expansionist trait, but even then not so much for the Scout. On higher difficulty levels and with more aggressive barbarians the risk of getting barbarians from a hut increases dramatically. Being assured that you WILL NOT get barbs from ANY hut is a very powerful tool on higher difficulty levels, especially in MP games.

That having been said, the Chasqui does suck kind of a bit.

	19-04-2004 21:35									#7
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quote: Originally posted by Mad Bomber Cort Haus: The trade off is that you have a scout that can hold its own against the barbs and can knock off a settler team or two with a little luck, or pillage a few tiles to disrupt other civ's REX (which also makes them misdirect their building priorities)

Yeah, but if you use it to attack early AI settlers, you risk a GA when you probably have no more than 2 tiny cities. Almost a complete waste.

Inca traits are good but the UU is subpar and the GA timing is horrible.

	19-04-2004 21:51									#8
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I wouldn't compare the Impi with the Chasqui. Impis are fast-moving defenders - very handy for the job of early defence, and upgradable afterwards. I'd never use Chasqui's for anything other than interim defence and reinforcement deterrence once scouting was over.

	19-04-2004 22:01									#9
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quote: Originally posted by gunkulator Inca traits are good but the UU is subpar and the GA timing is horrible.

Furthermore, I think that the UU hampers the expansionist trait. If I could build a regular scout as well, then fine - I'd squirt out a couple of those for starters and add Chasquis a bit later for longer journeys.

To be fair, playstyle is a variable here. I like to get roads down on (ideally river) tiles for commerce - especially with agricultural fast-growers. Maybe sacrificing commerce and growth for earlier shields would help but "must ... dash ... for ... philosophy".

	19-04-2004 22:14									#10
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I agree that the Chasqui is weak.

After much debate we decided to reduce its cost to 15 chields in the AU mod.

	19-04-2004 23:29									#11
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15 shields makes way more sense.......I wonder if we will ever see such tweaks applied to C3C by Firaxis.

	20-04-2004 00:21									#12
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quote: 15 shields makes way more sense.......I wonder if we will ever see such tweaks applied to C3C by Firaxis.

Who can say? That's why you have your friendly, neighborhood AU panel

	20-04-2004 03:47									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Aqualung71 Jag Warrior has the same stats but is cheaper at 15. The Impi has the same cost but has better defence at 2. The only advantage of the CS over these units then is its ability to run across mountains and hills (what about forests, jungles, etc? - civlopaedia doesn't mention this). I agree with CH - it seems too expensive compared to similar units, though as MB says, when handled well its use as a military unit could be pretty powerful.

But, when you add in the advantages of the scout (no barbs from camps) then it becomes much more powerful than the jag or the impi as it is far better at exploration and tech advances.

15 shields does make more sense for this unit. I have also modded the scout to 0.1.2 at 10 shields.

	20-04-2004 06:42									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Mad Bomber But, when you add in the advantages of the scout (no barbs from camps) then it becomes much more powerful than the jag or the impi as it is far better at exploration and tech advances. 15 shields does make more sense for this unit. I have also modded the scout to 0.1.2 at 10 shields.

Which brings us back to the debate that the Jag Warrior is too expensive at 15 shields compared to a 15 shield CS!

	20-04-2004 09:06									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Mad Bomber But, when you add in the advantages of the scout (no barbs from camps) then it becomes much more powerful than the jag or the impi as it is far better at exploration and tech advances. 15 shields does make more sense for this unit. I have also modded the scout to 0.1.2 at 10 shields.

wait a minute, thats an advantage that all units from an expansionist civ gets isn't it(or atleast scouts)? So why would that be added into figuring out which is better unit per unit? The Aztecs got to have another trait for that, and if you lump a trait in with the incas units lump a trait in with the Aztec unit.

	20-04-2004 22:58									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Whoha wait a minute, thats an advantage that all units from an expansionist civ gets isn't it(or atleast scouts)? So why would that be added into figuring out which is better unit per unit? The Aztecs got to have another trait for that, and if you lump a trait in with the incas units lump a trait in with the Aztec unit.

The ability to not get barbs from huts is an inherent trait that all scouts recieve. As the CS is a scout unit, I see no reason not to consider this fact in discussing relative worth of UU's.

	22-04-2004 18:33									#17
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[Mad Bomber] The ability not to get barbarians from huts isn't a trait of scouts, it's a trait of the civilisation (part of being Expansionist). The advantage that the Chasqui Scout has over a normal scout is that it can attack and defend. However, as I see it, the main reason a *scout* needs this ability is in case it runs into barbarians. And the Expansionist trait already guards against this possibility, by ensuring that no barbarians will come out of a hut. (The scout might, of course, encounter barbarians of other kinds, but it is more likely to have a warning of them and be able to skirt around them.) In other words, the advantage that the Chasqui Scout has over a normal scout is not an advantage that it really needs: it's certainly not an advantage that makes much difference. To put it another way, the fact that the Chasqui Scout will not spring barbarians from a hut gives it an edge over similar units like the Impi and the Jaguar Warrior, but then the civilisations with those units have two complete traits in addition to the bonuses of those units. Because the Incas' UU overlaps with their traits in this way, I think they lose out overall. I agree with those who think that the similar UUs of other civilisations score over the Chasqui Scout because of this.

	23-04-2004 03:13									#18
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Incas Scout is great for scouting thru mountains and hills.

Yes, their increased cost resulted in me only building 1 of them compared to normally building 2 or 3 Scouts.

Map I was on though was marginally too poor for me. (By marginally, not so bad that I forsaw being conquered in early game, but bad enough that I forsaw never being able to keep up in techs due to insufficent growth possiblities and I lquit that game in the middle ages.)