21-04-2004 04:18									#121
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Repeat it all you want, but few if any here are claiming the EU to be a federal government.

	21-04-2004 04:24									#122
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc How many times before we develop a consistency? We have the fact it took two rulings against the French government before they relented

Which ones are you talking about? France has performed poorly in much, much more than 2 issues. [url="http://www.curia.eu.int/en/actu/activites/act99/9926en.htm"]In this page only[/ul], there are at least three cases where France has been seen as guilty for basly implementing a EU decision. One I know better than the others is the problem with car retailers: French car retailers are bound with one brand (right next to my home, there is a Peugeot retailer, that only sells Peugeots); this system will soon disappear with EU laws. Same for car insurance: we have a system where the customer pays higher premiums if he has more accidents, and lower premieums if he has fewer; this is also unlawful by EU standards.
It is normal for a country to take time applying EU standards, and every country is acknowledged as guilty for not implementing decisions quickly enough.

quote: the French President openly insulting new EU members

Chirac is an incometent and arrogant assmonkey, but how is it any unlawful?

quote: the French government is blatantly violating the Stability pact

The EU institutions wanted to corner us, but have been protected by the council, meaing a majority of countries backed France + Germany. I don't see the same majority of countries suddenly deciding we cannot take part to European decisions anymore

	21-04-2004 04:26									#123
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quote: Originally posted by Kucinich Until it is more than a confederation of States, it is not a viable federal government.

It took us so long to discover we were in complete agreement?

I dread the fact we are a miserly confederacy. I want a glorious federation, which we are absolutely not.

	21-04-2004 04:30									#124
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quote: I want a glorious federation, which we are absolutely not.

I prefer an inglorious confederation. Glory was what millions of young men went off to find in August 1914.

	21-04-2004 04:35									#125
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quote: Originally posted by Dauphin Repeat it all you want, but few if any here are claiming the EU to be a federal government.

Right. Exactly. That's my point.

	21-04-2004 05:11									#126
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You seem to think your point proves something, it doesn't. EU laws are still laws.

	21-04-2004 05:13									#127
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Laws with no power... kind of like... treaties! Seriously, it isn't a law if it cannot be enforced.

	21-04-2004 05:14									#128
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As has been stated before EU laws have been enforced.

	21-04-2004 05:21									#129
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No, they've been complied with. A difference. For example, would you say the UN dues are a "law"? The US hasn't paid them yet.

	21-04-2004 05:32									#130
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quote: Originally posted by Kucinich It just didn't work. Unless and until the EU gains the power of direct taxation of its citizens, it governs each only through its consent. Until it is more than a confederation of States, it is not a viable federal government.

There is a (small) European tax:

quote: The "own resources" are revenues from levies on agricultural imports, customs duties on other imports and a slice of value-added tax income .These are all forms of tax which cannot be said to belong to a particular member state. For example, goods on which customs duty is paid in Hamburg may - thanks to the EU's single market - actually be destined for an importer in Naples.The member state collecting the money acts only as a service provider for a common EU policy (and gets to keep a share of the money as payment for acting as the collection agent).

Paying For Europe

	21-04-2004 05:34									#131
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Wait, do you pay taxes to the EU, or do the member states pay a portion of their income, determined by the incomes of their inhabitants?

	21-04-2004 05:38									#132
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Both.

A small part of the national value-added taxes is payed directly to the EU. More than two-thirds of the EU's income, however, are contributions of the member states.

	21-04-2004 05:40									#133
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quote: No, they've been complied with. A difference. For example, would you say the UN dues are a "law"? The US hasn't paid them yet.

Are 'dues payments' frameworked as a law? Is the US' lack of payment classed as an illegal act? Is there a mode of recourse, such as through a judicial system, to enforce payment?

	21-04-2004 05:43									#134
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The judiciary is not a mode of enforcement. Being convicted means nothing if you are incapable of compelling me to go to jail. A state enacts laws. A state has sovereignty over its territory. A state has the monopoly on the legitimate use of force. None of these are true of the EU.

	21-04-2004 05:44									#135
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quote: Originally posted by ElTigre Both. A small part of the national value-added taxes is payed directly to the EU. More than two-thirds of the EU's income, however, are contributions of the member states.

I mean when you fill out your taxes, do you fill out a form for the EU, and for your nation? Like in the US, we have federal taxes, and state taxes, and they are seperate.

	21-04-2004 05:46									#136
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You don't fill out a tax form for indirect taxes, do you?

	21-04-2004 05:50									#137
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My point is, if they're requisitioning the money from the member states, rather than directly from the people, they are no better off than the US under the Articles of Confederation.

	21-04-2004 06:15									#138
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I don't know, but I'm pretty sure that the EU doesn't have the means to collect these taxes directly from the people. So the member states probably administrate these taxes and forward the money to the EU.

Who has contended that Europe is more united than the US under the Articles of Confederation? The enforcement of laws / treaties / whatever is not the way the EU works. It tries to integrate decision making processes, so that national solo attempts become superfluous. Finally, states begin to transfer sovereignty to these new institutions. And yes, this process is not irreversible, enforceable or predetermined.

	21-04-2004 09:56									#139
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So what would you all say is the point at which the EU could possibly be defined as a "state", because right now its more just a loose confederation of countries.

Probably once individual citizenships are abolished completely. Because even thought there is an EU passport, its still differentiated by country internationally.

	21-04-2004 10:00									#140
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quote: Originally posted by JimmyCracksCorn So what would you all say is the point at which the EU could possibly be defined as a "state", because right now its more just a loose confederation of countries.

The day the EU becomes a State is the day people identify more to the EU than to their individual countries. It won't happen anytime soon (currently, about 10% of Europeans feel more European than their own nationality - a rough 50% doesn't feel European at all)

	21-04-2004 10:04									#141
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quote: I dread the fact we are a miserly confederacy. I want a glorious federation, which we are absolutely not.

In order to make that step you have to make it worth their while.