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JimmyCracksCorn
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Macedonia - Sovereign country north of Greece.
Dec 2002
time: 05:35
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What I don't get, maybe because I'm not from Europe, is what exactly the UK stands to gain from further integration into the EU, or from the EU at all. Even hypothetically.
It seems to me like just more bureacracy, and more powers given up to the central EU authority. I understand the need for economic unions, with free trade, but political union just seems to be pointless, especially as the world is becoming more globalized and national borders are meaning less and less anyways. In most countries, the trend is towards less government, not more... and the EU just seems like an excuse for government loving Euros to make theirs even bigger.
But thats just me...
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Tripledoc
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The EU is a force for good. It will defend us from the evil Zionists and the oppressive American imperialists.
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JimmyCracksCorn
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Macedonia - Sovereign country north of Greece.
Dec 2002
time: 05:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Tripledoc
The EU is a force for good. It will defend us from the evil Zionists and the oppressive American imperialists. |
Even though I know you're joking, it doesn't seem to be too far off from the goals of unification... just to stand up the the US. But how could this even be remotely feasible when if all EU armies were combined, it wouldn't even touch the US's in terms of firepower, training, and mobility. And the EU's global GDP % is drawfed by the US's, despite the EU having 100 million more people.
So with hopes of becoming a "superpower" that could stand up to the US being essentially (and in face of the facts) a pipe dream, I ask again: What does the EU offer individual members that they weren't getting before via free trade agreeements?
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JimmyCracksCorn
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Macedonia - Sovereign country north of Greece.
Dec 2002
time: 05:35
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Dauphin,
Ok, I understand the bit about no more european wars, but is the only answer to that unification? Seems a little complicated for such a direct goal.
But my question is really this - what does the EU offer member states (like the UK) as incentive to join and how is it different from what they were getting before the EU?
You could make a strong argument for the poorest states, but what does it offer the average member state like Germany or France, other than that they can suddenly boss around alot of other people in smaller states?
Or in other words, say I'm a rich European country. Why should I join the EU?
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ElTigre
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Germany
May 2003
time: 05:35
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quote:
Originally posted by JimmyCracksCorn
What does the EU offer individual members that they weren't getting before via free trade agreeements? |
1. A common currency: no fluctuating exchange rates; more world-wide monetary influence; an increase in tourism; economic integration beyond free trade.
2. A joint policy on asylum and migration, which is far more effective than having 15 member states that act single-handedly.
3. The Schengen Area: passport checks at the EU's internal borders have been abolished; a common policy on visas.
4. Citizens of the EU can participate in local elections even if they live outside of their home country. Discrimination on the grounds of nationality is banned.
5. More cooperation in fighting international and organized crime.
6. EU countries have agreed to recognise the equivalence of each other's laws and certification systems.
7. National laws on intellectual and industrial property rights have been brought into line; dito with company laws, thus making trans-national cooperation for corporations easier.
8. The EU's regional policy tries lo level structural differences between the member states as well as between regions (very succesfull in Ireland and Portugal).
9. The EU guarantees basic civil rights to its citizens, thus acting as a court of appeal if these rights have been violated by a member state.
10. Every European citizen has the the right to move around, work and live anywhere in the Union.
quote:
Originally posted by JimmyCracksCorn
It seems to me like just more bureacracy, and more powers given up to the central EU authority. I understand the need for economic unions, with free trade, but political union just seems to be pointless, especially as the world is becoming more globalized and national borders are meaning less and less anyways. In most countries, the trend is towards less government, not more... and the EU just seems like an excuse for government loving Euros to make theirs even bigger.But thats just me... |
Why do you think that European integration inevitable leads to more government and less liberty? Because the powers (and duties) of the government are shifted between region, nation, and Europe does not necessarily mean that this increases the authority of the government.
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JimmyCracksCorn
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Macedonia - Sovereign country north of Greece.
Dec 2002
time: 05:35
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quote:
Originally posted by ElTigre
1. A common currency: no fluctuating exchange rates; more world-wide monetary influence; an increase in tourism; economic integration beyond free trade.
2. A joint policy on asylum and migration, which is far more effective than having 15 member states that act single-handedly.
3. The Schengen Area: passport checks at the EU's internal borders have been abolished; a common policy on visas.
4. Citizens of the EU can participate in local elections even if they live outside of their home country. Discrimination on the grounds of nationality is banned.
5. More cooperation in fighting international and organized crime.
6. EU countries have agreed to recognise the equivalence of each other's laws and certification systems.
7. National laws on intellectual and industrial property rights have been brought into line; dito with company laws, thus making trans-national cooperation for corporations easier.
8. The EU's regional policy tries lo level structural differences between the member states as well as between regions (very succesfull in Ireland and Portugal).
9. The EU guarantees basic civil rights to its citizens, thus acting as a court of appeal if these rights have been violated by a member state.
10. Every European citizen has the the right to move around, work and live anywhere in the Union. |
And everyone of these can be achieved through labor agreements and economic treaties. I'm still not seeing the benefit of POLITICAL unification.
quote:
Why do you think that European integration inevitable leads to more government and less liberty? Because the powers (and duties) of the government are shifted between region, nation, and Europe does not necessarily mean that this increases the authority of the government. |
I never said less individual liberty, this should stay the same. And if you're adding a new tier to the top of any government, then naturally you are going to have less local authority. How could you not? There's only a certain amount of powers in any government, so if you're creating a new tier, there are less powers for local governments. This is like 3-1=2. Unless you're giving the EU silly authorities like "Moon Defense", which you're clearly not.
Last edited by JimmyCracksCorn on 20-04-2004 at 00:46
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ElTigre
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Germany
May 2003
time: 05:35
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quote:
Originally posted by JimmyCracksCorn
And everyone of these can be achieved through labor agreements and economic treaties. I'm still not seeing the benefit of POLITICAL unification.
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But the EU IS the sum of these agreements! And if such treaties are not political, I would like to know your definition of 'political'.
The European Commission supervises these agreements, the Council of Ministers decides on new treaties, and the EU Court of Justice acts as a final arbiter. The political unification you are talking about is nothing more than the varied penetration of national sovereignty by these agreements. There is no European super-state, though a large bureaucracy.
The Common Foreign & Security Policy is strictly intergovernemental, and not transnational. There is no integration in this policy area, just cooperation.
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ElTigre
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Germany
May 2003
time: 05:35
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quote:
Originally posted by JimmyCracksCorn
I never said less individual liberty, this should stay the same. And if you're adding a new tier to the top of any government, then naturally you are going to have less local authority. How could you not? There's only a certain amount of powers in any government, so if you're creating a new tier, there are less powers for local governments. This is like 3-1=2. Unless you're giving the EU silly authorities like "Moon Defense", which you're clearly not. |
Subsidiarity, definition: a principle in social organization: functions which subordinate or local organizations perform effectively belong more properly to them than to a dominant central organization.
This means, in turn, that functions which are performed more efficiently by superior organizations should belong to centralized institutions. If that lessens local authority, why not? I prefer efficiency over fragmentation. Is it that bad that the German Federal Bank does not exist anymore? The European Central Bank can do the same job far better.
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Sir Ralph
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Long live teh Schwampel!
Dec 2001
time: 06:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Spiffor
I am glad Britain puts the constitution issue to referendum. Since Rosbifs are mostly anti-European jerks, they'll obviously reject it, but it is a victory for democracy nonetheless. Something badly needed in Britain after the Iraq debacle.
However, I fear the referendum campaign will be full of stupid scaremongering, and that the Rosbif voter will be presented false issues, instead of casting an informed vote. There are many good reasons to oppose the European constitution, but the Brits will likely be presented the wrong reasons, and the almost inexistant "loss of sovereignity" will be presented as the main issue by the anti-Europeans, instead of a critics of how the currently existing EU works, and how a good constitution could fix that (not that I am thrilled by the constitution) |
Hey, hey... Don't you know that your Lord Chirac and the Queen just celebrated 100 years of friendship? 
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Spiffor
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CPA - Evil Clone brigade
Nov 2001
time: 06:35
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More seriously, it is since I post on 'Poly that I fathom the gap between the British mindset, and the rest of Europe's mindset toward the EU. The Brits see the EU as nothing else than a money-machine, that should remain so, and only so. Very few Brits feel a European dream, which is something needed to advance in this trailblazing adventure.
My moost notable political change of opinion since I'm on 'Poly is that I now fully support a two-speed Europe. On the one hand, an economic bureacuracy the Brits (and some reluctants such as the Norwegians, the Swiss and the Danes) seem to be fond of, and on the other hand, a political construct that also adheres to the economic bureaucracy.
I think it is useless, and pretty much impossible, to make everybody agree on a political Europe. Especially the pain in the ass that is Britain. Leave it be in its outdated nationalism, and let's not be held back by them as we move forward 
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19-04-2004 21:31
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