20-04-2004 23:07									#61
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In which case i demand a law against stupidity!

	20-04-2004 23:10									#62
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quote: English law, Whaleboy. There was a case of it in the 1920's (ish). Craig and Bently iirc - they made a film about it. EDIT: not craig and bently of course, one received capital punishment and the other was probably a little upset about the whole thing, which meant they werent really in a position to produce a film.

The law sucks

	20-04-2004 23:39									#63
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel You are an evil crusader!

I prefer the title "agent of cultural change.

quote: I bet you shoot arab kids all the time, and call them ragheads!

We prefer the term Hajji to raghead.

	21-04-2004 00:54									#64
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident the thing is most of the population are followers. That's just how we are designed. Most people cannot think for themselves, and follow what other people are doing. Humans are easily influenced. There's a reason why the holocaust happened so easily.

when the Nazis started "euthanizing" the handicapped, Germans protested, and the program stopped. Evidently people arent THAT easily influenced, at least when its their near and dear ones being killed. The reason the holocaust happened just may have related to a preexisting culture of eliminationist antisemitism (for more on this see Daniel Goldhagen, Ordinary Germans)

	21-04-2004 01:05									#65
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quote: English law, Whaleboy. There was a case of it in the 1920's (ish). Craig and Bently iirc - they made a film about it.

You can go back further:
Loki is radhbani of Baldr while Hodr is hanbani (Norse myths). Loki has been judged guilty of killing Baldr by giving the weapon to Hodr and inciting him to use it...
Anyway the point is that, in France, it is illegal to incite people to act violently. If it was not, anyone could muster a mob (must first find the stupid guys), tell them into violent acts, and get away without any problem?
A mob is stupid, even though people who make it are not necessarily.

	21-04-2004 01:06									#66
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quote: Originally posted by Richelieu I should have started a thread.

this one will be fine, tks...

	21-04-2004 02:30									#67
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quote: Originally posted by Verres English law, Whaleboy. There was a case of it in the 1920's (ish). Craig and Bently iirc - they made a film about it. EDIT: not craig and bently of course, one received capital punishment and the other was probably a little upset about the whole thing, which meant they werent really in a position to produce a film.

It was the 1950's.

Craig is a family acquaintance- he used to go birdwatching with my father while he was in Leyhill Open Prison. I met him a couple of times.

	21-04-2004 04:39									#68
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quote: communist mayor of this Imam's city has immediately begun the judicial process against the imam.

Funny, but I consider this to be MUCH worse than the Imam's statements. Like I will continue to say, free speech as no place in Europe it seems.

Another thing, if a woman said that women should kick the crap out of their cheating lovers would such a stir be created? Just food for thought.

	21-04-2004 04:48									#69
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor For thinking so? - no For stating so in a close audience of acquaintances? - no For stating so to a wide audience? - yes

:vomit:

So, because you disagree with his beliefs, he shouldn't be allowed to say they are true? You are assuming you are infallible, to the point that you don't let people contradict you in public? I see no difference between this and outlawing the current minority party from holding speeches, etc. If anti-abortion laws go into effect, should candidates for government office be imprisoned or deported because they support abortion? Should candidates be imprisoned or deported because they support legalization of marijuana? Should candidates be imprisoned or deported because they disagree with the law?

	21-04-2004 04:48									#70
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no imran, if a woman said that, we would laugh and chuckle, and give the women the keys to their cars to run over their husbands and laugh all the while.

	21-04-2004 04:55									#71
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quote: Originally posted by Whaleboy If I held and stated that opinion should I be subject to legal retribution?

No, but a refusal to publish. It also depends on the level of incitement. Telling people that beating a cheating wife is one thing, and is espousing an opinion. Telling a person to beat their wife is another, and is incitement.

If a child is being bullied - verbally taunted, etc. and then is told to go and break into a house, by those bullies, are they not culpable. Look at Spiffors assertion, if you were not going to kill someone, and he came up to you and convinced you to kill that person, your crime is being weak, his crime is making a murder happen. Now, I wouldn't consider him completely liable, but to say what he did was completely legal is going too far IMHO.

	21-04-2004 04:57									#72
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quote: It also depends on the level of incitement. Telling people that beating a cheating wife is one thing, and is espousing an opinion. Telling a person to beat their wife is another, and is incitement.

And this was clearly a case of the former - you ought to do this. An opinion. Not a command.

	21-04-2004 04:58									#73
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Wow, already? It feels like yesterday that our 8th deity (Rah) was introduced.

I know. They grow up fast

	21-04-2004 05:02									#74
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quote: Originally posted by Kucinich And this was clearly a case of the former - you ought to do this. An opinion. Not a command.

True, but that is for criminal proceedings. For civil proceedings, lawsuits and the like, what he said would be enough. Therefore, if a man beats his wife, I'd like to see the wife sue the Imam for inciting her husband to do as such. Incitement doesn't have to be direct for a civil case, IIRC.

And so it passes the American Lawsuit Test

Only Swiss neutrality and Dutch acceptance to go

	21-04-2004 05:08									#75
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quote: For civil proceedings, lawsuits and the like, what he said would be enough.

How? If a candidate for office was pro-abortion, and someone had an abortion, could you sue that person?

	21-04-2004 05:14									#76
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What for? There is no crime being broken there.

If a boy was obsessed with a film, like say A Clockwork Orange, and went out and committed a copycat killing, civil proceedings could be brought against the film makers. It's not illegal to depict it, it's not incitement, but it did (arguably) make the crime happen.

	21-04-2004 05:15									#77
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quote: No, but a refusal to publish. It also depends on the level of incitement. Telling people that beating a cheating wife is one thing, and is espousing an opinion. Telling a person to beat their wife is another, and is incitement.

And we're not incited to do stuff all the time? Where do we draw the line? Utilitarianism won't help us because there is no immediate utility gained, and in terms of intent, we all want a better world so we can't call this guy evil.

Refusal to publish, as long as its private (I choose not to publish another mans works) is fine, as long as no-one is actively preventing the possibility of publication imo.

quote: Now, I wouldn't consider him completely liable, but to say what he did was completely legal is going too far IMHO.

Liable and consequentially responsible? Perhaps. Enough to warrant measures taken against him? Of course. Enough to warrent punitive legal actions? I'm not convinced.

quote: Only Swiss neutrality and Dutch acceptance to go

Ah! The Heinekken theory of inductive morality...

	21-04-2004 05:19									#78
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quote: Originally posted by Drogue What for? There is no crime being broken there.

I forgot to mention (I said it in another post) that in this scenario, abortions are illegal.

	21-04-2004 05:30									#79
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quote: Originally posted by Kucinich I forgot to mention (I said it in another post) that in this scenario, abortions are illegal.

Actually no, they wouldn't win. The person sueing would have to show how they lost out due to the abortion. A father who's wife aborted, illegally, their child, could try, but they'd have to show that the pro-abortion candidate showed them how to commit a crime, or made the crime able for them to commit it, or told them to commit the crime, or something like that. Simply saying "abortion should be legal" isn't enough to warrant even civil action.

	21-04-2004 05:33									#80
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quote: Originally posted by Whaleboy Ah! The Heinekken theory of inductive morality...

Of course

	21-04-2004 08:54									#81
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Kucinich:
See LOTM's post, he hits the nail. There is a strong difference between the advocacy of a change in policy, and actual incitement at violent behaviour. This is a debate we already had with pedophilia, and I have the same opinions as before: advocate for policy changes if you want, but incitation is a strict no-no.

	21-04-2004 08:57									#82
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Saying people "ought to do this" isn't particularly different from saying people "ought to be allowed to do this". It's semantics. He's not standing in front of a mob - in those cases, immediate public safety obvious supercedes immediate freedom of expression. He isn't calling for everyone to do this in defiance of the law.

	21-04-2004 08:59									#83
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Except that he gives a religious approval to wife-beating, and gives precise instructions for a kosher hallal wife-beating.

	21-04-2004 09:01									#84
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Not instructions, limitations. Would you rather he NOT put those limitations?

	21-04-2004 09:26									#85
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I love the French concept of free speech. Sure, you can say whatever you want, as long as it doesn't offend the state or conflict with its laws or policies. Let freedom ring.

	21-04-2004 09:36									#86
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Free speech isn't absolute here indeed. There are very few places outside of the US where the freedom of speech is absolute.

	21-04-2004 09:38									#87
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quote: Telling a person to beat their wife is another, and is incitement.

Not when it is said in the general case. It is 'incitement' only when it is done in specific cases. So, a Klan member can write a book saying the KKK should kill all the Jews, but he can't hold a rally and order those people there to find a Jew and kill them (unless they don't actually go out and do it).

There is a subtle difference between general advocation of violence (freedom of speech) and specific advocation of violence (incitement).

Remember, in the US, hate books are not illegal, but are protected by freedom of speech.

	21-04-2004 10:24									#88
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: communist mayor of this Imam's city has immediately begun the judicial process against the imam. Funny, but I consider this to be MUCH worse than the Imam's statements. Like I will continue to say, free speech as no place in Europe it seems. Another thing, if a woman said that women should kick the crap out of their cheating lovers would such a stir be created? Just food for thought.

I agree with Imran.

France has, along with it's banning of headscarves and skullcaps, betrayed the enlightment. In it's actions, it has shown utter contempt for individual rights and minority rights. It seems as though France rather then accepting idea of tolerance and pluaralism, seems intent as imposing strictly it's atheistic ideology. They are almost as though they are secular fundamentalists.

	21-04-2004 10:27									#89
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quote: Originally posted by Shi Huangdi It seems as though France rather then accepting idea of tolerance and pluaralism

Sorry if we do not tolerate the advocacy of wife-beating

If for you, an enlughtened country is one where wife-beating is rampant in a part of the population that feels it is OK, then I don't want to be part of your enlightenment.

	21-04-2004 10:30									#90
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quote: Sorry if we do not tolerate the advocacy of wife-beating

What was it Voltaire said: "I do not agree with what you say, but I will defend to death your right to say it"?

quote: If for you, an enlughtened country is one where wife-beating is rampant in a part of the population that feels it is OK, then I don't want to be part of your enlightenment.

An incredible strawman, so large that it must be blocking out the sun in your neck of the woods. Allowing people to have opinions means that those opinions are 'rampant'? I'm sure NAMBLA (North American Man-Boy Love Association) would love to hear that.