06-05-2004 23:38									#31
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Right

They wouldn't (couldn't) have any units to control (even Darsnan's tweak that lets the IoD's capture and operate a foil or cruiser wouldn't work as you can't "control" native life)

But they'd have a physical location on the map in the game (maybe each faction has to send a unit there as a "delegation to the ToB" before they can enter the ToB forum and participate in discussions)

Each faction maybe has to "donate" something of value for the ToBbers to offer as a competition prize - an Alien Artifact, chopper, empath gunboat, etc - and while they'll control it while the competition is underway, they must transfer control once the ToBbers have declared a winner (along the lines of the abortive "Cuspidore's Cup race" in the current game)

That sort of thing

At least that was my impression on reading the thread

G.

	06-05-2004 23:42									#32
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Hey this does sound kind of cool, and MWIA would be great for that.

If UnO does not find his "Mercenary Team" he would be excelent to help in this idea as well.

I like it

	06-05-2004 23:42									#33
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Hey this does sound kind of cool, and MWIA would be great for that.

If UnO does not find his "Mercenary Team" he would be excelent to help in this idea as well.

I like it

	09-05-2004 19:09									#34
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Maybe, con, but my interest dropped when it became clear that there would be no base allowed in-game for this ''faction".

The virtual city is just too much pretending for me.

	10-05-2004 06:48									#35
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quote: Originally posted by MrWhereItsAt Maybe, con, but my interest dropped when it became clear that there would be no base allowed in-game for this ''faction". The virtual city is just too much pretending for me.

Why cant you guys have your own city

	10-05-2004 14:14									#36
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There's quite a discussion that this would take an AI faction slot.

	10-05-2004 20:20									#37
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Yes you should really read the thread before you comment on it con.

	10-05-2004 20:25									#38
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quote: Originally posted by HongHu Yes you should really read the thread before you comment on it con.

I WOULD BUT some people SPAM SO MUCH AROUND HERE, That I dont usually have the time to sift thru a 1000 posts to find a couple of good ones



Bump out one of the AI's or make the map a tad bit bigger and give MWIA his "Tower of Babylon".

	10-05-2004 20:38									#39
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Actually I think more than 80% of posts in this thread are actually real discussions about this idea. At least that would be the number before you arrived here.

	10-05-2004 22:13									#40
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for conmcb25's benefit:

quote: Originally posted by Googlie I haven't heard or read anyone objecting to the principle of a "meeting place" (eschewing the use of the word 'forum' 'cos of its double connotations) as suggested by the "Tower of Babel" proponents as a fertile ground for active game roleplaying. But why does it have to be an in-game physical site and faction? Can't the same objectives be met essentially with the general forums rec commons - just renamed (or given its own forum with many threads for those wanting to role play in greater depth?) Objections to it's taking a faction's place are: If it's not a real faction - and trust me, a Darsnan tweaked faction won't just be decoration - then it's just clutter. Useless pactmate or treaty partner for Morgan, with just one base. Not worth Sparta's time to conquer - or Gaian's (unlike, say, a tweaked AI faction that might deliver ten or twenty bases into the hands of a victorious momentum player) Just an pushover faction for the Angels to infiltrate and get their techshare up and running. And as a single base faction, will have crappy labpoints, so will skew the tech research rate for the other factions (it would actually be preferable to have just six factions than 6 plus a 1-base faction) Unless it was compelled to always abstain, it would just be a spoiler in Council decisions, as it would have no in-game imperitives at work, just roleplay preferences and biases Nothing I've seen about this "ToB" faction can't be done just in the forums - in other words, it doesn't need a faction to be created for all the suggestions to bear fruit. And I do think it's worthwhile finding a home for the handful of players (and others who'll pop in from time to time) so that they can participate and roleplay. So call it the 8th faction - a Virtual Faction - inhabiting the fungal net, without bricks and mortars, and aren't the same objectives met that way?

	10-05-2004 23:07									#41
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Thanks Googlie

I have now gone back and read again most of the posts after asking some questions.

It seems to make more sense now.

I just wish some people around here would realize some of us haven't played SMAC much in years and have not yet participated in a SMACX Demo game. So when odd ball stuff like this comes up it may not register the first time.

	11-05-2004 01:25									#42
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...So do you support my cause, con?

	11-05-2004 01:53									#43
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I've put forth my reasoned objections to using a faction to house the "dissidents"

MWIA - maybe you could elaborate on what this one-base faction would do - and why it couldn't be accomplished virtually?

G.

	11-05-2004 03:52									#44
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quote: Originally posted by MrWhereItsAt ...So do you support my cause, con?

Yes I do even though there are some very good reasons not to do it.

I dont roleplay worth a hoot, but I enjoy it when others do so.

And this meeting place on the map intrigues me.

And this is rather unlike me because Im usually a rationalist, but this time, I think we ought to do it even though there are good reasons not to just because.

And just because I want to see how it works.

And im hoping UnO helps you

	11-05-2004 05:32									#45
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Here's a thought

Why don't the Adullamites take over a complete faction, such as the anodyne PK's?

If they don't want to play to win, that's fine.

If they want to limit themselves to just 1 base, that's their prerogative

If they want to be non-militaristic, and give their energy away as prizes for debating contests, round-the-world races, etc etc, that's OK

If they want protection against the AI - who will home in on them like a guided missile - then let them buy protection from other factions if they don't want to build a garrison

After all, no-one is telling the Angels, Spartans, Morganites or Gaians how to organize and run their factions

They'll have to play a turn in sequence in any event if they are "awarded" a real base to use, so why not play as a faction (as they'd have to do anyway) and participate in Council meetings and vote on motions

They have somewhat of a critical mass anyway, with:

MrWhereItsAt
T_Ras
Voltaire
UnOrthOdOx

(and Tass has said previously that if this got off the ground he'd be interested)

MWIA et al- how about it?

G.

	11-05-2004 12:30									#46
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Well the two reasons I wanted it were preety much my own.

1. To have something to do in the game to tide me over when I get those urges to be in a SMACDG.

2. In order to see how the factions turn out so I could determine which (if any) I wanted to join when the game was rolling, which is I think the time when we will REALLY see how they will eventuate. After all the initial idea was that anyone could be a member of the ToB as well as another 'real' faction.

	11-05-2004 19:06									#47
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A question regarding Googlie's idea. Will this mean that they are the 5th team, just as the rest of us? They can do whatever they want. If they want more than one base later they can do that, etc... Or will they get some kind of a special treatment, for example they weren't be attacked and things like that? Will they be involved in trading and other diplomatic relations? This needs to be carefully discussed to avoid any unwanted influence and unbalancing on the game.

	11-05-2004 20:00									#48
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Their are clearly not enough people to form a 5th faction that would remain viable for the whole game (as all the people your listing are the ones so unintered in the game that they havent joined any faction yet). Further more it adds another 48 hours to EVERY turn and we would need to poll such for it to be included. Just drop this 5th faction nonsese it aint going to happen.

As an 8th "virtual" faction this idea still has a chance but not as a 5th Human faction.

Last edited by Impaler[WrG] on 11-05-2004 at 20:06

	12-05-2004 08:29									#49
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

There's now the possibilty of a partially team controlled AI faction.

It won't take an AI slot, it will rarely cause turn delays (turn will only be opened every 5-10 turns maybe), will allow for prizes and such to be given away and also allows for people to have a faction to centre themselves around.

In addition I thought it might be an interested study into how a CMN can tweak AI during a game every 5-10 turns. So game strategy discussion will have the added dimension of trying to lead a unwieldly AI faction with minimal input.

There might need to be restrictions so this team doesn't win the game, as it can be considered unfair with a team having the AI bonuses, even if they're only only adjusting the AI every 5-10 turns.

Instead of having Babel as a single city have it based AI faction. In case anyone has forgotten the original reasons for Babel.....
http://www.apolyton.net/forums/show...70&pagenumber=1
That's where it's explained.

The main reason for having some kind of game presence is mainly because it's difficult to get people to work together in a fake faction. It breeds a certain sense of fruitility in everything that people do. Also having partial control of the AI means prizes can be given out.

There's another problem with this in that the part AI/part human faction would require the CMN or a game moderator to run the turns due to security issues. Both in the program being used, and also to keep the freedom of membership as originally outlined. This shouldn't be too bad as it will might need to occur every 1 month assuming a fast pace for other factions playing. Maybe as much as 2 months between when turn will be adjusted.

The idea can't be called Babel anymore, because it's nolonger 1 city....

Anyway throwing these new abilities into the mix of this arguement and seeing what comes out. Again this is idea. So it's up to other people to figure out if they want to reject it completely, or adjust it to suit what they would like to happen.

	12-05-2004 08:40									#50
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Oh I guess most people wouldn't want to read that whole long thread from before.

Here's the original goals that I was hoping would be fostered with the original Babel.
* Fostering a friendly environment where members from different teams can meet and not have to discuss their own faction.
* Fostering roleplay between teams via, competitions, debates, story writing, and keeping a history of Chiron world events.
* Fostering activity, by allowing more interaction between players of different teams, an netural starting point for new players, bringing in new people in the game, and maybe distributing players according to factions that are suffering from lack of membership.

Additional goal someone else wanted.
* more political intrigue. (political interaction is currently pretty limited by the way ACDG is set up)

	12-05-2004 16:32									#51
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Editing the AI mid-game? I wouldn't want to be planning a war against an AI, but a few turns before the war noticing that someone just gave them a sudden and unexpected boost.

	12-05-2004 17:03									#52
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Shurly the CMN wont just make stuff apear out of thin air, they would simply be using the resorces already their in a more inteligent way.

	12-05-2004 17:05									#53
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Boosting factions mindlessly with resources is more a CMN thing.

I thinking more along the lines of adjusting what certain cities can build, fixing up terraforming, adjusting the design workshop to retro-engineer designs and maybe changing the currently researched tech. Also with diplomancy possibly forcing the AI to end a war, do some tech trades with humans.

So yes every couple of turns the faction would be boosted by suddenly getting smart like a human player.

Anyway I wonder if there could be a place in PBEMs for half AI players. They let the AI play the turn most of the time, but every now and again come along to make adjustments. It would require a whole different way of approaching strategy in the game and wouldn't be as time consuming to play.

	12-05-2004 17:11									#54
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quote: Originally posted by Kody Anyway I wonder if there could be a place in PBEMs for half AI players. They let the AI play the turn most of the time, but every now and again come along to make adjustments. It would require a whole different way of approaching strategy in the game and wouldn't be as time consuming to play.

Could be a way of 'replacing' a human player untill he can follow his faction up again. (vacations and the stuff).

	12-05-2004 18:47									#55
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quote: Originally posted by Impaler[WrG] Shurly the CMN wont just make stuff apear out of thin air, they would simply be using the resorces already their in a more inteligent way.

If I understand Kody correctly, his program won't let the player (CMN) open the scenario editor, it just lets him take control of an AI faction for a turn and do the things any human player could do in a turn. Upon "turn complete" (saving and sending to the next player in the rota) next time round it's the AI again unless the same program is applied to "humanize" it for a turn.

I have had the privelege of testing it for him, and it would have allowed me to deploy those roaming Believer Colony Pods as well as doing a better job of co-ordinating the A's and B's research. (While Miriam was submissive to Roze, and gave her evereything she had, Roze didn't share much with Miriam. That too could be rectified with the Kody Codicil)

G.

	12-05-2004 18:55									#56
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quote: Originally posted by Kody I thinking more along the lines of adjusting what certain cities can build,

I wouldn't want to be playing the Angels and planning a probe rape against an AI, but then from one turn to another suddenly notice a change in production from facilities to probe defences, as the CMN felt that would benefit the AI... Or the Spartans planning an invasion, thinking the AI is a juicy weak defended target, but then one turn notice the CMN switched all production to military units.

quote: fixing up terraforming,

Replacing say a farm/mine combo with more or less equivalent terraformations like two forests or so seems a good thing to do, but I wouldn't like to see boreholes suddenly appearing without the AI even having the former potential to do so. Edit: Scrath that. Seems ti be impossible according to Googlie's post.

quote: maybe changing the currently researched tech.

Again, I wouldn't want to be the Angels planning to steal a tech the AI will research in 3 turns, but then notice the tech under research is suddenly changed to something I don't want.

quote: Also with diplomancy possibly forcing the AI to end a war, do some tech trades with humans.

Other human players could find it unfair a war was just like that ended between an AI and a human rival. Similar with techs: other human teams could find it unfair that a human rival has been able to trade a tech with an AI due to CMN interference, and they got nothing.

My point is it's almost impossible to make "neutral" boosting changes that won't benefit one human faction more than another, or that won't suddenly and unexpectedly disrupt plans a human had towards that AI. This would be even more impossible if the CMN who does the editing also has access to the private fora and plans of all human teams.

So to prevent sudden and unexplainable changes in behaviour of the non-human-team factions, they should be either fully AI, or fully human-single-player. But that last option was voted down due to not wanting to lengthen the time between turns, and not wanting to risk single human players winning a democracy game, etcetera.

	12-05-2004 18:59									#57
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You've missed the point I brought up completely.

Edit:

Sorry I was annoyed because you took the conversation completely off the topic. I didn't want to discuss about the CMN balancing the game that's something I'm letting the CMNs discuss amongst themselves (I'm sure they'll figure that out what is fair and what isn't, they're pretty smart and they really do care about making sure things are fair).


This is about a human team that could be involved in ACDG without adding the full burden of having an complete human faction. If your arguments you've stated are for rejecting that idea then they don't make sense, because you're saying other factions shouldn't make sensible decisions.

Edit2:
Oh yeah, in response to you comments about CMNs editing the AI mid-game. I have a lot of faith that a CMN would be far more careful with the editing. They don't get respected for what they do while being careless.

From what I've heard from listening and talking to Googlie. I see him using it to stop an AI from running away with the game because of a unbalanced starting boost. Or stop the AI from screwing itself over with dumb decisions like... building too many colony pods... building too much military that it runs out of minerals and gets literally stuck in development (I've seen an AI do that in one of my games).

Last edited by Kody on 12-05-2004 at 19:19

	12-05-2004 19:37									#58
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RE controling AI mid turn. If this is possible this is certainly a great revolution to how the game can be played. I would be a little hesitated to test this concept out in a demo game. This game involves too many people. It is not a good venue to test new ideas like this which might bring great impact on the game. A pbem might be a better place for testing.

If this is proved to be possible, then I can see the CMNs using it. Not frequently to completely alter the AI's behavior, and causing troubles for other human teams such as what Maniac is concerned. But rather the CMNs can use it as a tool to correct stupid AI mistakes. This could only happen say a couple times during the entire game. And the CMN would also be required to preannounce his actions.

As for the partial AI partial human idea, I'm still leaning toward opposing it. Although Kody's idea now can be accomodated so that it won't cost an AI slot, there are still other concerns that would prevent an in game half human controled faction being practical. My main concern is that it will definitely bring new influences to the game and will tilt the balance of the game. Even with what an AI can have using their limited intelligence, the half human team could still do a lot to change the balance of the game.

	12-05-2004 19:37									#59
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quote: Originally posted by Kody This is about a human team that could be involved in ACDG without adding the full burden of having an complete human faction.

In that case the old position still stands: the IIRC two Spartans who've spoken about this subject (Jamski and I) simply don't like a fifth human team under any form in-game that IMO removes a normal AI faction slot and which can give in-game prizes (credits, techs, etc) to certain factions as a consequence of out-game competitions. One base is already bad, but a whole faction (with human guidance but also with AI bonuses ) taking up space is even worse IMO. Your new idea doesn't change anything to Jamski's and my previous position as far as I can see.

quote: Originally posted by HongHu

I agree.

	13-05-2004 04:21									#60
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I guess I didn't resolve all the issues with the modified idea.

Honghu:
Fair enough.

Maniac:

quote: With human guidance but also with AI bonuses.

You're worrying a little too much, it'll still do worse than a human. Because human guidance and AI bonuses are mutually exclusive. If the human intervenes for a turn the faction loses the AI bonuses the turn the human intervenes.