22-04-2004 09:42									#31
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quote: What's worse is that this probably means less funding for contraception in the third world (not that the US isn't cutting that already). Are these people idiots? Don't they realize that the world simply cannot continue to sustain the present rate of population growth?

And, of course, contraception is absolutely essential for the liberty of women in the thrid world. Thus, those against reproductive freedom in the Islamic world, are helping the terrorists.

	22-04-2004 09:54									#32
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo those against reproductive freedom in the Islamic world, are helping the terrorists.

That's scary, good point.

	22-04-2004 11:19									#33
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Not to mention that without contraception, there will be more of them.

	22-04-2004 18:35									#34
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc I'm going to have to call BS che.

You have fun.

In the early 1990s, Time magazine had an article about how abortion was unavailable in 86% of U.S. counties. Basically, outside the large cities, it's almost impossible to get an abortion, not because it's illegal, but because anti-women's groups have bullied suburban and rural providers into no longer providing them. It may not be dejure abolition, but that really doesn't mater to the women who need them when they can't get them.

	22-04-2004 18:39									#35
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Che -- that is somewhat parallel then to the disfranchisement of blacks after the 1880s -- the Constitution guaranteed the right to vote regardless of race, but the Southern states had dejure disfranchisement through literacy laws, understanding clause, and so forth.

	22-04-2004 18:41									#36
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara In the early 1990s, Time magazine had an article about how abortion was unavailable in 86% of U.S. counties. Basically, outside the large cities, it's almost impossible to get an abortion, not because it's illegal, but because anti-women's groups have bullied suburban and rural providers into no longer providing them. It may not be dejure abolition, but that really doesn't mater to the women who need them when they can't get them.

Interesting...has this resulted in more problem children in those areas? Or do most people just travel to an area that does offer abortion?

	22-04-2004 18:44									#37
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quote: And, of course, contraception is absolutely essential for the liberty of women in the thrid world. Thus, those against reproductive freedom in the Islamic world, are helping the terrorists.

since when having kids in the Islamic world had anything to do with freedom?

	22-04-2004 18:46									#38
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I think he meant that having the choice of when to conceive or to give birth is freedom that women in all parts of the world should be entitled to, and that Islamic terrorists want to restrict that freedom.

	22-04-2004 18:51									#39
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quote: I think he meant that having the choice of when to conceive or to give birth is freedom that women in all parts of the world should be entitled to,

I am standing by my point.

	22-04-2004 18:58									#40
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quote: So abortion is still legal, but they're trying to ban an abortifacient? Either way to the measures. I don't think it's an anti-women thing though, since there are women and men on both sides of the debate, and not being able to get contraceptives harms men as well as women - it takes two to have a baby.

Whether or not there are women on both sides is largely irrelevant. We are dealing with a situation where policy is justified on a matter of faith, and some people are quite happy to blow themselves up on a question of faith, so advocating the restriction of their own freedom is no biggy. All indicative of the necessity of the separation of religion and state. Atheistic democracy is bad enough .

	22-04-2004 19:03									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia Interesting...has this resulted in more problem children in those areas? Or do most people just travel to an area that does offer abortion?

Travel costs money. So middle class and wealthy women can travel to a big city, even in a state that requires a consultation and then waiting period, and get their abortions. Poor women can't take that much time off work and drive across the state (twice) or stay in a cheap hotel. As to your original question, I can't answer that.

	22-04-2004 19:09									#42
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Travel costs money. So middle class and wealthy women can travel to a big city, even in a state that requires a consultation and then waiting period, and get their abortions. Poor women can't take that much time off work and drive across the state (twice) or stay in a cheap hotel.

That sucks because poor people who have more children wil only get poorer and they are basically producing more children who will get a bad start in life.

	22-04-2004 19:31									#43
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Travel costs money. So middle class and wealthy women can travel to a big city, even in a state that requires a consultation and then waiting period, and get their abortions. Poor women can't take that much time off work and drive across the state (twice) or stay in a cheap hotel. As to your original question, I can't answer that.

Good.

If people have money and are willing to pay for something, they are going to be able to get it. If you can afford to hire a hit man, you will be able to do it. But by criminalizing activites we can make them harder to accomplish.

	22-04-2004 19:47									#44
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quote: Originally posted by Whaleboy Whether or not there are women on both sides is largely irrelevant. We are dealing with a situation where policy is justified on a matter of faith, and some people are quite happy to blow themselves up on a question of faith, so advocating the restriction of their own freedom is no biggy. All indicative of the necessity of the separation of religion and state.

All very true, but I doesn't change my point that anti-contraception legislation is not just anti-women.

	22-04-2004 19:52									#45
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara You have fun.

Just as I thought. Pure BS fed hysteria. If you insist on lieing about a subject at least have the courtesy to do it in a manner that isn't so blatant.

	22-04-2004 20:14									#46
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quote: All very true, but I doesn't change my point that anti-contraception legislation is not just anti-women.

True. As last night demonstrated, condoms make excellent bongs

	22-04-2004 20:21									#47
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quote: Good. If people have money and are willing to pay for something, they are going to be able to get it. If you can afford to hire a hit man, you will be able to do it. But by criminalizing activites we can make them harder to accomplish.

Yes indeed, let's go back to the good old days of back alley - hair pin - abortions!!!
-
So you don't kill people because it's illegal?

	22-04-2004 20:56									#48
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quote: Originally posted by Whaleboy True. As last night demonstrated, condoms make excellent bongs

We had very different last nights

Although I would have thought a condom either wouldn't have enough volume, or would be hard to pressurize enough to stretch it. However pressure could be a good thing when smoking, if a little hard to keep contained until ready.

I have to say, as far as bongs go, I think the plain bottle used at your party was better than the easter egg, it had more volume, and you could see how much you were filling it. Add to that the fact it didn't melt, was easier to cool, and seemed to have more effect, and you have a better bong. Although a clear water bong used with vodka, but actually using a bong, not a vodka bottle and straws, would be the best, IMHO.

/threadjack.

What does that have to do with the point though? Just a little side note slipped in there?

	22-04-2004 21:30									#49
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Just as I thought. Pure BS fed hysteria. If you insist on lieing about a subject at least have the courtesy to do it in a manner that isn't so blatant.

It's not a lie. The fact is, for a signifcant number of women in the U.S., the right to an abortion is as distant as the right to own a factory. It's soemthing they have, but they have no means to excercise. That is entirely a result of the anti-women's movement making it harder to get an abortion.

	22-04-2004 21:37									#50
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So what. The "right" isn't absolute to begin with and if doctors don't wish to provide the service, that's not a problem the legal system should deal with other than to insure the safety of the doctors that care to preform the procedure.

The lie I was refering to was your claim of a ban which is out and out false.

	22-04-2004 21:40									#51
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Doctors don't want to provide the service because they don't want to be subject to boycotts or fear for their lives. Two docotors have been killed, several have been bombed, many more are subject to death threats.

When a violent and dangerous movement takes away one of your rights, your right has been banned.

	22-04-2004 21:47									#52
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Well, it's either let the doctors do their job or it's back to the old method:



By protesting or preventing doctors from performing abortions or the likes (even chemically) they are actually endangering a life, where the believe they are saving one.

	22-04-2004 22:14									#53
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quote: Originally posted by Shi Huangdi But by criminalizing activites we can make them harder to accomplish.

Yeah -- let's hear it for denying women the right to autonomy over their own bodies.

	22-04-2004 22:16									#54
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Lets ban Vasectomies

	22-04-2004 22:18									#55
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quote: Originally posted by Japher Well, it's either let the doctors do their job or it's back to the old method:

Yes. I've heard this arguement before too. Stop protesting what you believe is a moral wrong or I'll go mutilate myself with a coat hanger. I thought it was stupid then as well.

	22-04-2004 22:19									#56
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Doctors don't want to provide the service because they don't want to be subject to boycotts or fear for their lives. Two docotors have been killed, several have been bombed, many more are subject to death threats. When a violent and dangerous movement takes away one of your rights, your right has been banned.

Have the anti-choicers who attacked and killed doctors ever done so with the blessing of anti-choice organisations? Has any anti-choice organisation ever condoned violence?

	22-04-2004 22:19									#57
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DD -- are you really that insenstive/ignorant about the dilemma that women who had unwanted pregnancy, had to go through in making a decision when abortion was illegal??

	22-04-2004 22:21									#58
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quote: Although I would have thought a condom either wouldn't have enough volume, or would be hard to pressurize enough to stretch it. However pressure could be a good thing when smoking, if a little hard to keep contained until ready.

Well think of it as more of a retainer then. Either way, it ruled!

quote: I have to say, as far as bongs go, I think the plain bottle used at your party was better than the easter egg, it had more volume, and you could see how much you were filling it. Add to that the fact it didn't melt, was easier to cool, and seemed to have more effect, and you have a better bong. Although a clear water bong used with vodka, but actually using a bong, not a vodka bottle and straws, would be the best

The egg didn't melt when I've tried it, and its more compact which is nice. An ice bong is greatly superior to a water bong, it makes the smoke so incredibly smooth. And I can tell you that hash that we had at my party isn't as good with bongs as skunk, you try filling a bucket with skunk smoke and taking that in!

quote: What does that have to do with the point though? Just a little side note slipped in there?

Cannabis has everything to do with Christian fundies... somehow

	22-04-2004 22:22									#59
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quote: Yes. I've heard this arguement before too. Stop protesting what you believe is a moral wrong or I'll go mutilate myself with a coat hanger. I thought it was stupid then as well.

I think it hold some water. Like that guy who OD'd because he thought the doctor was underprecribing him so he ordered the drugs from Canada. If the option exists people will consider it and weigh the pros and cons. In situations such as this, as well as health/money/crime/etc., they will sometimes make a bad decission. It is the responsibility of the state to ensure the well-being of the public, especially when a viable option exists... or at least that's what the socialists tell me... despite moral implications.

	22-04-2004 22:22									#60
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia Have the anti-choicers who attacked and killed doctors ever done so with the blessing of anti-choice organisations? Has any anti-choice organisation ever condoned violence?

Yes. There are a few terrorist organizations that engage in violence over this issue.