22-04-2004 22:25									#61
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia Have the anti-choicers who attacked and killed doctors ever done so with the blessing of anti-choice organisations? Has any anti-choice organisation ever condoned violence?

Officially, the anti-women's groups condemn violence, but it frequently seems to be with a nod and a wink. Just enough to keep the Feds from labeling them as terrorist groups and shutting them down.

	22-04-2004 22:37									#62
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Officially, the anti-women's groups condemn violence, but it frequently seems to be with a nod and a wink. Just enough to keep the Feds from labeling them as terrorist groups and shutting them down.

I heard NOW is having a march in DC this sunday. Hopefully things don't get ugly when the two protesting sides get together. I think NOW said they were bringing paint to throw over the pro-lifer's fetus signs.

	22-04-2004 22:39									#63
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There's supposed to be a million pro-choicers in DC this weekend. I was planning on going, but things didn't work out.

	22-04-2004 22:39									#64
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Yes. There are a few terrorist organizations that engage in violence over this issue.

Really? Can you name an organisation on either side that has sanctioned violence? I've been having a discussion with Ben Kenobi about this.

	22-04-2004 22:39									#65
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara There's supposed to be a million pro-choicers in DC this weekend. I was planning on going, but things didn't work out.

Any idea how many pro-lifers will be there?

	22-04-2004 22:41									#66
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia Really? Can you name an organisation on either side that has sanctioned violence? I've been having a discussion with Ben Kenobi about this.

The Shepards of the Lamb, I think is the name of one such group. They don't come right out and say violence is okay, but they publish the addresses and photos of doctors and their families, where they work, where they attend school, etc.

	22-04-2004 22:42									#67
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia Any idea how many pro-lifers will be there?

Dunno. I wouldn't expect them to make a strong showing, based on past experience.

	23-04-2004 16:29									#68
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quote: since when having kids in the Islamic world had anything to do with freedom?

Just woke up so I can't tell where you're going with this.

quote: I think he meant that having the choice of when to conceive or to give birth is freedom that women in all parts of the world should be entitled to, and that Islamic terrorists want to restrict that freedom.

The point that I was making is that with reproducive freedom, particularly with contraception, a woman can actually do something besides spitting out and raising kids constantly. Which imposes serious pressures on society to grant them more freedom (to go to work, to enter politics, etc.), and thus push towards secularism. And of course, Islamic terrorists tend not to be very secular.

	23-04-2004 18:17									#69
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Uh, Che?

When we Oppressors gather at the YMCA in the middle of the night scheming to reinforce the glass ceiling while women sleep, I have no doubt that you imagine us going MWAHAHAHAHA quite villianously. Have you thought of an actual motive too? If you haven't, I really can't say I think much of your delusions. This is not an Austin Powers movie. People don't sit down with checklists labelled EVIL TO PERPETRATE ON THE INNOCENT in real life; we "anti-woman" activists do actually believe in something positive. Entiendes?

	23-04-2004 18:37									#70
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quote: Originally posted by Elok Have you thought of an actual motive too?

It's religious and cultural. Look at the Promise Keepers, who believe that husbands/fathers should reclaim their "rightful place" as the head of the home. Look at the conservative Xians who've been arguing for thirty years that women should be in the home and not the work place. Who was it who fought the ERA?

It is all part and parcel of the same heterosexist movement. Men should be in charge, women are for breeding.

	23-04-2004 18:57									#71
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Bah! Women got to stay home for far too long! I'm looking forward to being a stay-at-home Dad.

	23-04-2004 19:36									#72
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quote: Originally posted by Elok This is not an Austin Powers movie. People don't sit down with checklists labelled EVIL TO PERPETRATE ON THE INNOCENT in real life; we "anti-woman" activists do actually believe in something positive. Entiendes?

* DinoDoc decides to put away his checklist...for now

	23-04-2004 19:45									#73
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara They aren't a small minority. Right-wing Christian fundies control the Republican Party. They passed a measure in Texas.

I think you have it backwards. The Republican Party controls Right-wing Christian fundies.

There is an excellent article in the latest Harpers that explains how the Repubs promise the Moral Majority the moon, over and over again; and aside from a few bones tossed there way, deliver the Military-Industrial Complex, oil-drilling in Alaska nature reserves, slack oversight on SEC violations, and so on. They use the Moral Majority rhetoric to get Americans of well below average economic means to support outsourcing their jobs to India & China.

quote: We thought they wouldn't be able to restrict abortion, but they've managed to do just that.

Who thought that?

quote: Do not make the mistake the Germans made, of thinking these people are clowns and will never succeed. If we dismiss them until they are powerful, we'll have a much harder time holding on to our rights.

Agreed. Why do we dismiss this minority, and not pedophiles? After all, they only molest a tiny minority of all children...

	23-04-2004 19:49									#74
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5/10 for the ability to bring to combine a pedophile reference with a Godwin.

	23-04-2004 21:09									#75
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So, the logic is to ensure the continued societal disadvantages of women by...stopping abortion? Wouldn't our malevolent energies be better spent in cooking up PA-style studies "proving" that women become irrational during that time of the month, and hence can't be trusted with important jobs? The degree of "control" offered by preventing abortion is minimal. If the sole objective were to continue domination, it would be better to toss them a bone to keep them contented, rather than have a touchy subject like that causing resentment to no real benefit.

If nobody objected to Booker T. Washington asking economic equality to avoid giving the black man social equality, giving abortion would surely be a reasonable placation device in this instance. Going after women in the workplace, or at least birth-control in principle as opposed to those which could be construed as abortifacients, is a better angle of attack. The reason it ain't so is that this isn't some whacko conspiracy. There are genuine concerns for human life at work here, at least among the majority of us.

	23-04-2004 22:49									#76
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C'mon DD. That was worth AT LEAST a 6/10.

	23-04-2004 22:53									#77
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quote: Originally posted by Elok Wouldn't our malevolent energies be better spent in cooking up PA-style studies "proving" . . .

The fact that some of you believe your BS doesn't mean that's what your movement is about.

	23-04-2004 22:55									#78
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It's best to give che a cookie and ignore him in threads like this Elok.

	23-04-2004 23:03									#79
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Do other countries seem to have this problem? I'm referring to COMPLETELY RETARDED PEOPLE being in position of power.

	23-04-2004 23:04									#80
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* chegitz guevara unleashes Sava-dog.

	23-04-2004 23:05									#81
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In a moment, DD. After all, just because commies like Che SAY they're just after a state where all exist in equality and cooperation, that doesn't mean they aren't secretly after a world controlled by mutant goat-people. It makes no sense, most of 'em deny it, but commies in the know are definitely pro-goatperson-dominion.

	23-04-2004 23:05									#82
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RAWRAWRAWRAWRAWR

	23-04-2004 23:09									#83
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quote: Originally posted by Elok In a moment, DD. After all, just because commies like Che SAY they're just after a state where all exist in equality and cooperation, that doesn't mean they aren't secretly after a world controlled by mutant goat-people. It makes no sense, most of 'em deny it, but commies in the know are definitely pro-goatperson-dominion.

It makes so much sense. I don't know why I never saw it before!

	24-04-2004 00:32									#84
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Speaking of paedophiles, a member of a newsgroup I used to post on put a bounty on abortion doctors, and then had the authorities raid his house. They found gigabytes of kiddie porn on his computer and CD's. Well, I guess anyone who is so anti-woman is going to be anti-child (Or perhaps too pro-child) as well

	24-04-2004 01:03									#85
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Okay, Gibsie, we admit it: all pro-lifers are secretly child molesters trying to assure a steady stream of underaged tail for posterity. Your keen reasoning skills triumph again.

Oh well. Little fun question: should it be legal to shoot a pregnant tiger with a tranq dart, extract the fetus, and grind it up into medicine for elderly chinese people? It's not like you're killing an endangered animal or anything; it's a "potential tiger."

	24-04-2004 01:15									#86
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quote: Originally posted by Gibsie Speaking of paedophiles, a member of a newsgroup I used to post on put a bounty on abortion doctors, and then had the authorities raid his house. They found gigabytes of kiddie porn on his computer and CD's. Well, I guess anyone who is so anti-woman is going to be anti-child (Or perhaps too pro-child) as well

prolifers usually are sick whackjobs... we know they hate woman (but they joke about it as if it were sarcastic), we also know they love to kill people (abortion doctors).

	24-04-2004 01:26									#87
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I'm on the side of the lefties on the abortion issue, but it's only because I think abortion has a positive eugenic effect.

The funny part is that by supporting abortion the lefties are killing off potential lefty voters.

Abortion.

	24-04-2004 05:21									#88
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Che:

quote: As I have previously stated, the Anti-Women's movement isn't simply out to stop abortion. That is only phase 1. They are out to end access to contraception as well. The more reactionary members of this movement (such as the Promise Keepers) want to relegate women to 2nd status in their own families. Get out of the workplace and back to the kitchen. Start having babies, lots of babies. Margret Atwood must be having flashbacks about writing A Handmaid's Tale.

First of all, one of the actions of the birth control pill, rather than preventing contraception, alters the tissue of the endometrium such that the embryo will not implant in the tissue of the uterus.

Far from preventing contraception, the pill procures early term abortions. Other methods of contraception, such as the condom or diaphragm are perfectly okay.

This does nothing to restrict your sexual freedom, in that you can still have sex with as many people as you want, provided you carry the child to term. It's a big leap to go from valuing the life of the child, to preventing sexual activity.

While you are right that most prolifers also favour chastity, in changing the laws against abortion will not affect laws regarding sexual conduct.

The key issue in abortion, is that the unborn child is a person from conception onwards. In this, the pill kills young embryos, early in their development. In order to be consistent, prolifers ought to oppose the use of the pill for this sole reason, and nothing to do with contraception.

quote: While most of the proposed conscious-clause bills started out by protecting pharmacists who don't want to dispense RU-486, also known as an abortifacient, Virginia has gone so far as to consider a bill that would declare fertilization as the beginning of life.

Again, contraception is how prolifers define personhood. To argue against this requires one to argue that the prolifers are wrong on this point, notwithstanding their individual views on contraception.

quote: This would classify emergency contraception, the pill, the IUD and other methods of contraception that prevent a fertilized egg from implanting in the uterus as abortifacients.

No fertilized egg. Sperm and egg cease to exist at conception, where a new entity, the zygote forms out of the union of the gametes.

quote: anti-abortion groups have opened another front: going after family planning funding. According to the Planned Parenthood Federation of America, just this year 12 states have introduced bills that would eliminate all family planning funding to organizations that even discuss the option of abortion or refer women to clinics that perform abortions.

Planned Parenthood is the largest abortion provider in the US. The terms 'family planning' and abortion, employed by PP are interchangeable. If one wishes to ban abortion, they are not targetting PP for 'family planning' but for the abortions they provide, and make a substantial amount of money off every year.

	24-04-2004 05:24									#89
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quote: prolifers usually are sick whackjobs... we know they hate woman (but they joke about it as if it were sarcastic), we also know they love to kill people

I suppose I'm in the minority.

Or would you put me in the majority?

	24-04-2004 05:27									#90
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quote: There is an excellent article in the latest Harpers that explains how the Repubs promise the Moral Majority the moon, over and over again; and aside from a few bones tossed there way,

Unborn Victims of Violence Act.

Partial Birth Abortion Ban.

UNFPA funding cut.

If that's a bone, there must be a steak attached.