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First of all, most of my game are decided before riot factor even takes effect. SEcond it really ****ing pisses me off when I have to click on 20 cities a turn, and especially when my opponent does too because then lag becomes a factor. And I'm sitting there waiting for a ****ing year!! A higher riot factor is optimal for duel play because there's only two people which means lots of cities. I get really annoyed with the tedious stuff. The only things I have checked on my city report options is warn when city in disorder and warn when city improvement has been built. And I went 2 months of letting people host because I had a LAN connection that wouldn't let me host.
I fail to see how this is so valuable information. "As much as you try to minimise the advantage, fact is you had valuable information on your altered rules text that was not shared with your opponent (can we check the chat logs on this too EoN?)." Is this really going to alter the way my opponent plays? Would it have kept AH from getting boxed in? Was riot factor the reason he only had 6 ciites? I think not.
<font size=1 face=Arial color=444444>[This message has been edited by Eyes Of Night (edited October 02, 2000).]</font>
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I decided to play a game against the AI 1 on 1 usual settings except with the riot factor at 14. Now you might say this doesn't reflect on playing a human opponent. Well actually if you're talking about AH as a human opponent it does. This was actually a smaller map than the one aginast AH. The on against AH was 50X60. I saved every so often to document the effects as I went along and here is how it turned out. Once I turned monarchy I had only 1 turn where my techs took 4 turns, the rest of the time was 3 turn techs. I have the save of the turn it took 4 turns. I was making so much money from my cities that I had at one point nearly 1000 gold at about 2000BC. I went ahead and bought HG. I could have bought it earlier, but I neglected to do it. In the end I stopped at 1300BC. Here are the stats: 4 turn discoveries, 65 gold per turn, 51 cities with lots of settlers about to build cities, researching gunpowder. NOw tell me the difference between this game which has a lower riot factor and my game with AH that has a higher riot factor? You might say the AI was far easier. Actually the AI had 6 cities when I stopped, the exact same number as AH in our game. In fact I destroyed 2 of it's cities and I never destroyed any of AH's which means that the AI was actually expanding better than AH did. Not only that it was practically taking out pikemen with warriors whereas AH was wasting hordes of elephants on a walled city with pikemen. So then I want you to explain to me how riot factor makes such a huge difference in the game if I end up with the same stats as I do with a higher riot factor and I want you to tell me how AH would have played far better if he had known the riot factor was set higher. By the way, I have the saves of my game with the normal riot factor. It consists of 7 saves if anyone wants to see them.
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It's real easy to debate this. It's not cheating. And my opponents aren't going to change the way they play based on something as simple as this. More players than you think do the same thing I do on league. By the way, I played AH on 2x1x too. Even then he had 6 cities and I didn't even box him in.
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arii
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St-Louis MO USA
Jan 1970
time: 05:12
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Now a change in the rule.txt.
What next?
Don't tell me it does not give you an advantage when there are changes in the rule.txt that the opponent is not aware of. This is BS.
Stop the BS and excuse making.
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arii
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St-Louis MO USA
Jan 1970
time: 05:12
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Now a change in the rule.txt.
What next?
Don't tell me it does not give you an advantage when there are changes in the rule.txt that the opponent is not aware of. This is BS.
Stop the BS and excuse making.
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Spider
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k-town
Jul 2000
time: 05:12
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Once a cheater, always a cheater.
Why was anyone giving him the benefit of the doubt? He doesn't deserve it. Do you really think this character has scruples?
Do you really think this is the only change he's ever made to his rules.txt? How hard would it be for him to change the attack bonus of all units to 200% or something else that wouldn't be noticed very easily but would make a tremendous difference?
Another thing that I find very interesting is that it was mentioned,(I believe by Moker)that when Eyes hosts, the game will frequently say something like, *Waiting for players to join game in progress* at the START of the game. I wish I had Moker's exact quote on that, but I see he's edited his posts and that particular accusation doesn't seem to be there anymore.
What I want to know is, is this the tip-off that someone is loading a pre-made world rather than a random map? Could Eyes be loading the game in scenario mode and giving himself a much better starting position than his opponent?
I've never noticed a difference in the game messages between a continued game and a fresh start, but apparently there is one?? Could someone please verify this. One of my biggest beefs with this game is that it's possible to load a contrived position, thus giving the host a tremendous advantage (over and above the advantage the host already has). But can this cheat be avoided, now, by paying attention to the start message????
I'm not 100% certain it was Moker who brought this accusation up, but it certainly is odd that the accusation is no longer there. What's up with that? It was either in this thread or the one about Horse and Hydey hitting the zone, but when I went to look for the exact quote it was no longer there. Did he think better of revealing this "trade secret" or did he simply wish to retract an unprovable accusation?
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that accusation was made by me...
in the hydey thread...
eyes is a cheat...
always has been, always will be...
i played him, got the "waiting your turn to join" message, and knew immediatly that i was going to lose. still i played, and he boxed me in quick, and just expanded...
i did well, considering i had as many cities as him...
i almost had the great wall built, when he stated that the great wall is unfair in a "no city bribe" game...
i didn't want my points, i just wanted to play him, to see if he changed at all...
once he tried to prove that he doesn't cheat, so he REVEALED THE MAP TO ME DURING A MULTIPLAYER GAME...
if he could show me the map, he could certainly show himself while playing against someone...
EYES IS OVER........
------------------
Proud Member of Sayen, what about you?
Master of my Domain...
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It was on Villages only. Chuckles that is the most ridiculous accusation I've ever seen in my life. There isn't even a difference between messages. Get a clue. And it's real simple to reveal the map. Start a game, save it, activate the cheat mode, reveal the map, load the game. Not real hard to figure out. It wasn't as if I did this in game so don't try to make it sound that way. And it was loaded as a saved game, remember? You seem to conveniently leave minor details out. And if I loaded it as a scenario it would show it when you retire. If you weren't so ignorant about thisg ame you'd know that. Ming you're obviously going to be able to tell if an archer has an attack strength of 200 because when you go into a city screen and go to build it off to the right it shows it's stats 3/2/1.
Maybe if you people actually learned all the nuiances of this game we could get down to the real stuff. And this whole riot factor thing is very simple. Basically you're getting me on a technicallity. It has nearly no effect on the game, all you're getting me on is that it's considered immoral. Face it, you keep looking for the really big bad cheater kind of stuff and all you're left with is a technicallity. And one more thing, you said that it was an honest game after our game Chuckles. Just thought I'd remind you of that.
AH define obscure. On a river is obscure? When you find me with a chariot and kill a newly built city and I've explored everywhere except for that direction, that's your idea of obscure? And what weaknesses does my strategy have AH? Please tell me oh great one. My strategy accounts for everything. It's very strong on military, high production and trade, it takes control of the map. It can work as a transitional phase if I want to go into republic and then democracy. Where are the major weaknesses? It accounts for every single thing that can go wrong in a game. The only thing that can ever beat it is if someone gets a great start from huts. Also, my cities were defended. I had 3 pikemen on each city in our last game. You should try backing up your comments for once.
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<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src=/forums/"/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font><font size=1>Originally posted by Eyes Of Night on 09-27-2000 08:50 PM</font>
Right now in the fourth game I have 51 cities and 74 units to his 6 cities and 9 units.
<img src=/forums/"/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>
Eyes, this is from the opening post of this thread. So, could you explain how you had 3 pike in every city?
LOL, it just keeps getting better 
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I think what it really comes down to is that I just don't care anymore. I need to get a life. I'm arguing over a game that only a handful of people play or have ever heard of it. 9 years I've wasted playing this. I feel like such a computer geek. So then I have to ask myself something. If I enjoy arguing about the game more than I do playing the game what am I really on here for? I can't believe I got suckered again into wasting another 2 days posting on this. I'm addicted more to the forum than I am the game. It's not healthy. Why do I care what people say on the computer? I get up and I leave the computer and I don't think about it yet somehow I come back here every time. My addiction is rooted deeply in my subconscious to the point that I don't even know when I'm thinking about this game. I guess that comes when you do something for 9 years straight. But is this healthy? How can enjoying an imaginary life be healthy? I used to think that this had no effect on me, that I could keep my real life separate from my computer life. I hate myself for being so weak. I can't believe I allowed myself to become so infatuated with a piece of hardware. I mourn for the time I wasted on here clicking and typing away for nothing. For no other purpose than to assauge an addiction I wasn't even aware of. I even created a false personality on here. Someone who loved to argue and would rather make enemies than friends. An egotistical brat who picked fights with everyone he found. And somehow I enjoyed this. I enjoyed the feeling of hate and contempt I had for other players on here. I loved it and couldn't get enough of it, it became an addiction that I nourished with a growing hatred for everything around me. Every day, every hour I would check on the forums to see what was going on, to see where I could start trouble next. For years I've gone on like this, and up until now it didn't bother me. But now that I'm in college and I'm tasting some of the better experiences of life I recognize what the computer really is to me. No matter how much I hate to admit it it has become a part of my life and it's changed me. I never used to swear until I came on here. But as I began to post more and more I became more and more bitter in my posts, adopting an alter ego. I fear it may have even carried over into my real life for I now swear far more than I used to. Perhaps this is just a part of being young or perhaps my two personalities are beginning to combine. The outcome can't be good and the psychological effects of such a transition are perhaps only in their early stages. I know for sure that I still hold a part of me that is still the real me. What scares me though is that I've made a habit of using real life details in my posts in conjunction with my alter personality. I can't allow this to continue. I must draw a line between the imaginary and the real or I may be irreversibly changed for the worse. You were right AH, I played you knowing the outcome would be a posting on cheating. I played you like a piece on my chess board like I have so many others. And from it I derived great amusement and enjoyment as I relished in the pure disgust and hatred that I had for everyone else and that they had for me. AH you are the last in a long line of pawns that have been nothing more than entertainment for me. A name that I can manipulate to do what I want, nothing more. I can't allow this to continue, I can't allow my false personality to combine with my real one. I feel nothing but remorse for what I have become, and even more so that I enjoyed it. This is perhaps the first post that I have made using my real personality. Only one person has ever really talked to the real me, and that is kaak. I see now that I have only one solution to my predicament and that is to cut off all contact completely. The only contact I will have with anyone is through kaak on ICQ with a new ICQ number only he will have. I have already deleted the zone and Mplayer along with all other programs that might have once harbored my alter personality. I know I should delete ICQ, but I don't want to break off contact with kaak. I don't think I will even play tribe games anymore for it only opens up old scars. I will have to think about it though. If I do it will be to play only and I will have absolutely no contact or conversation with the opponent. I'm sorry that I have been able to cause so much hatred in a simple computer game. And I'm even sorrier that I enjoyed it and made it apart of my life.
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Moker Guy
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The Matrix
Feb 2000
time: 05:12
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oh man did i ever open up an apolyton can of whoop ass! 
but i might as well put in my honest opion on the subject. i dont really consider what eyes did with his rules.txt cheating, imoral, selffish, self gratifing, and taking advantage of another player yes. but i think cheating is going a little bit to far. every player in that game gets the same advantage, and eyes is telling the truth for once when he says that he is not the only one on gameleague that does this. in fact i would have to say a majority of the people on gameleague play this way. i myself used to have a modified rules.txt. i quit using it about 4-5 months ago beacause of the very reason that i thought it was unfair, and i modified it for one reason and one reason only. so i wouldnt have as much disorder and i would be able to build more cities without them going into disorder. this is the exact same reason why anyone would do it. i dont see why eyes has to make a big deal of things and try to beat around the bush so much. just fess up to what you do and it makes things alot easier on yourself. really, knowing about this comes in with experience ive been playing on gameleague for almost two years, and if you know about rules.txt it makes you a better player beacuse you will be able to handle the changes that each host has made to it. one thing that i never thought about, or was mentioned by any gameleagueer that i have ever played was that they have changed there rules.txt. i can tell when i play someone if they have modified it, this is one reason why i let other people host, that and my modem will lag them . also, with this experience i have gained the tricks of the trade and developed a few myself. when i say this i am not talking about cheating in any way shape or form. i dont beleive anyone right now on gameleague cheats. if they do they are smart about it and wont be caught at all. it is very hard to catch a good cheater at this game. i know from experience beacause i used to have a hack program. when i found it i thought it was the best thing to hit online gaming. but in the end i relized that the people i play dont even have a chance at beating me, i like to have a challenge not a pushover. this is the whole reason why i quit cheating in the first place. i didnt cheat for more than a couple of weeks before i relized this. i will come clean and say that i have never cheated in a gameleague game,<<NEVER but i will admit to cheating in one of the first tribe game i had ever played. this is when i first found the hack and relized i would be unstoppable. its kinda like the feeling of having nukes when no one else has them but like i siad ealier i no longer cheat, and havent cheated in a game of civ for well over a year. ask anyone that knows me and they will tell you that i am a fair and honest player. but let me get back on the subject. it is nearly impossible to catch a good cheat. if they do it right you will have no evidence against them and no possible way to prove it. they only way you might be able to tell if they are cheating is if during your turn you get a bit of lag that comes and goes. this is due to the hack reading all of the numbers in that game. it takes a few turns for the hack to log onto the number so you will have lag for a few turns during your turn. an unusally long turn in the begging of a game, followed by a long but shorter one, followed by another long but even shorter and then a normal turn could mean that they are loading a cheat program. oh ming did you say something earlier about being able to prove if someone is cheating before you bring it to the forum good luck to all that try
i wont ever bring up anything that i dont belive is true. i have never played 95% of you but i look forward
to playing some of you some day. i am a completely differnt player than eyes with a completely differnt style of play. i hope i made it clear that i dont cheat anymore so no one gets the wrong idea. cheating is morally wrong, but to each his own.
Super Sayen Moker
Leader of the Sayen Tribe
Join the tribes Apolyton!!!
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So, is Eyes Kaak?
LOL
We all create our online personalties and I believe the forum is really an extension for 'Diplomacy' and psycholgical tactics in the games we play.
I'm happy with someone playing out the role of an Eyes but when it comes to cheating we step into real world stuff - ethics and morals.
Eyes, you could have enjoyed being EoN, the evil villain, if you had not strayed from a level playing field. I guess this is what you are saying; and now that you are all growed up you want to behave like an adult and be forgiven (again) .... and then next American autumn (fall) it'll happen again.....
I'd really like to know the story of Kaak and whether he has any confessions... I think markus said that Kaak beat him in quite a few duels... I wonder if they were on a level playing field.. ??
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*THE DEITY*
#8388924
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The trouble with cheating is that it robs players of their enthusiasm to play and make everyone suspicious of each other. That's the worst part.
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Don't worry, I won't tell anyone. Your secret is safe with me.
http://apolyton.net/forums/Forum19/HTML/002208-2.html?71#71
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Kaak
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Okay...this is getting rediculous. An outline of kaak's thoughts follows....
I. I am not Eyes of Night.
A. We are in the same tribe, we play at the same time.
B. Completely different personalities. I do not attempt to anger people.
II. I do not play with a modified rules.txt. I think the disorder is a good thing, and i am better at handling it than most.
III. HOW THE HELL are you going to incinuate that i cheat?!?!? i am about to get mad.
IV. I think it is sad that none of you can respect the kind of self awareness and vision it took for eyes to see what was going on and make a change to correct it. If only the rest of us were so fortunate =)
iadkins: watch where you tread.
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Kaak
Tribe of the Divine
Pain is just fear leaving the body
To fail to try is the only true failure...
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Kaak
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just to clarify.
Moker is WRONG. I do not have the same modifications. I HAVE A STANDARD RULES.TXT file, with NO CHANGES.
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02-10-2000 20:51
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