26-04-2004 19:37									#61
	Re: Let's laugh at this loserish top 100 games of all time list! Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Jaguar http://top100.ign.com/91-100.html Civ got a respectable number in the teens, but this is simply the worst concieved list I have ever seen. Some highlights include Wolfenstein 3D and Simcity both being beaten by Virtua Tennis, a Sega Dreamcast game. Yes, I kid you not, a Dreamcast game.

I have it on good authority that Virtua Tennis was a very good tennis game, even if no-one played it 'cos it was on the Dreamcast. It was recently remade (badly) for the PC.

	26-04-2004 20:17									#62
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quote: Originally posted by Zero Starcraft = 1996 - today

SC came out in 1998.

My Top Fifteen

0. Civilization II
1. Total Annihilation
2. Europa Universalis II
3. Imperialism
4. Warlords Battlecry II
5. Warlords III
6. Doom2
7. Transport Tycoon Deluxe
8. Heroes of Might & Magic II
9. Duke3D

10. Kohan
11. Imperialism II
12. SimCity 2000
13. Serious Sam
14. Caesar II

	26-04-2004 21:55									#63
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark Really youre being sarcastic, no? we have avid Simcity players, and those who despise the Simcity games, we have folks who are deep into FPS and those who never play them, Sims players and Sims haters, wargame enthusiasts and those whove never played a wargame, and some who arent even quite sure what one is. We have Paradox enthusiasts, and Paradox haters, etc. About the only thing we have in common is a liking for at least ONE of the Civ related TBS - and even there, the Civ2, CTP, SMAC, and Civ3 camps are sometimes bitterly divided.

Nah difference in taste we generally have are about as wide and diverse as quake VS UT.... Sims, wargames and civ games are basically the same old thing to people outside that dont know it. Maybe u guys see it as crazy diverse, but someone on the outside wont.

I mean, on Shoryuken.com, theres crazy diversity! people playing virtua fighter 4, street fighter 2, madden, NBA live! some lil FPS games here and there.. etc.

If I were to ask who played civ there, id get the same response as who played guilty gear XX:R here. ANyway this kind of representation is only natural cause these sites are about bringing people who have similar interest together anyway.

And there arent many FPS gamers here. Name like ten.. out of hundreds here in poly.

	26-04-2004 22:00									#64
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quote: Originally posted by Jaguar Sorry, but I have now lost all respect for you.

actually jaguar, WC2 was a game that got better and better with patches and ****.

When first released it was pretty broken gayness.

	26-04-2004 22:13									#65
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quote: Originally posted by Zero If I were to ask who played civ there, id get the same response as who played guilty gear XX:R here.

Who played what?

I think you'd be a bit more successful there. Civ is a famous franchise, and chances are some people of Shoryuken actually tried it some time

	26-04-2004 22:25									#66
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guilty gear XX:R was really succesful in japan. It is praised as one of the best fighter to date.

Okay fine, ill name a fighter thats bit more known. VIrtua fighter 4. It was really big. Yeah still the "huh" right.

	26-04-2004 22:39									#67
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I played one of the early ones once on the Sega Saturn.

	26-04-2004 22:50									#68
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quote: Originally posted by Zero Nah difference in taste we generally have are about as wide and diverse as quake VS UT.... Sims, wargames and civ games are basically the same old thing to people outside that dont know it. Maybe u guys see it as crazy diverse, but someone on the outside wont. I mean, on Shoryuken.com, theres crazy diversity! people playing virtua fighter 4, street fighter 2, madden, NBA live! some lil FPS games here and there.. etc. If I were to ask who played civ there, id get the same response as who played guilty gear XX:R here. ANyway this kind of representation is only natural cause these sites are about bringing people who have similar interest together anyway. And there arent many FPS gamers here. Name like ten.. out of hundreds here in poly.

here in other games id say like at least 50% or so have at least SOME interest in FPS. And id say its easier to get a long thread going here about an RPG like BG or Morrowind than it is to get a thread going about a wargame. Are you really suggesting that an RPG is just another variant on TBS?

	27-04-2004 01:28									#69
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quote: Originally posted by Zero Seriously, why hate on dreamcast? everybody loves DC.

Excellent sarcasm, almost thought you were serious.

	27-04-2004 05:32									#70
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark here in other games id say like at least 50% or so have at least SOME interest in FPS. And id say its easier to get a long thread going here about an RPG like BG or Morrowind than it is to get a thread going about a wargame. Are you really suggesting that an RPG is just another variant on TBS?

Asked a friend who hates "boring" games

quote: me: Do you think theres a difference between RPG and wargames? friend: no ****. friend: Warcraft III > Ever bore me: ... -_- me: I dont think thats considered a wargame. me: I think. friend: ? me: Actually I dont even know what wargame is. me: all I know is that its supposed to be historical and really boring. friend: ? friend: yeah it does me: t3h wHaCk friend: werd

average joe schmoe friend.

quote: me (8:28:02 PM): i gots me (8:28:05 PM): cant sendz me (8:28:21 PM): how about difference between turn based game and rpg me (8:28:26 PM): are they the same friend (8:28:39 PM): WARGAMES ARE NOT TURN BASED me (8:28:52 PM): how bout turn based VS RPG tho me (8:28:57 PM): same thing? me (8:29:57 PM): no im not asking about wargame anymore friend (8:30:16 PM): turn base is rpg

just a common conception of people who dont give a **** about civ or ur wargames etc... yea it may be wrong but thats how it is. "its all the same".

	27-04-2004 05:38									#71
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No offense Zero, but I wouldn't really trust the type of people you probably associate yourself with at all...

	27-04-2004 06:28									#72
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my point is: ask any non geeks. its all the same ****.

tass, these people are waay more worth associating myself with than people like myself and you.

	27-04-2004 06:32									#73
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quote: Originally posted by GhengisFarb Excellent sarcasm, almost thought you were serious.

DC is the greatness ya fool

	27-04-2004 07:28									#74
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quote: Originally posted by Zero my point is: ask any non geeks. its all the same ****.

Tsk. My FATHER can make the difference between Civ and Morrowind. In Civ, you character doesn't appear on the screen

	27-04-2004 08:18									#75
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quote: Originally posted by Zero bnet edition is r0xor

Possibly, still, I dread clickfests. As a result, the only way I play RTS is solo, so I can have time to pause the game to look around and think about what to do. Since Warcraft 2 -- really, all Blizzard RTS - sucks in single player campaign mode, that's how I see the game.

	27-04-2004 11:36									#76
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quote: Doom deserves to be in, because it took the ideas of Wolfenstein 3D, but made an excellent and varied game out of it, instead of the grey and dull Wolf3D. Without doom, FPS wouldn't be where they are now. Pitfall sucks. Big balls. I wonder what there is to like in this game, I've always found it to be boring as hell.

Yeah people put wayyy too much weight into who came first. The calssics are a good thing in literature, but not always in video games.
Pong just doesn't really have that retro feel, at least they didn't put htat crap on the list.
Despite that though, I still think WOlf3d deserves soem credit. I always preferred W3D to Doom. I found doom to be just boring. SOmething about nazi killing that intrigues me over killing demons( There does seem to be a relation between the two though)

quote: quote: Originally posted by Zero Seriously, why hate on dreamcast? everybody loves DC. Excellent sarcasm, almost thought you were serious.

I think it was better than some other systems(jaguar, and the Saturn IMHO)

quote: Tsk. My FATHER can make the difference between Civ and Morrowind. In Civ, you character doesn't appear on the screen

My daddy has trouble figuring out how to not crash after 3 seconds in StarFox 64.

	27-04-2004 12:47									#77
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quote: Originally posted by bipolarbear Yeah people put wayyy too much weight into who came first. The calssics are a good thing in literature, but not always in video games.

The greatness of a game has something to do with how it impacts on the gaming industry as a whole, thus, groundbreaking games in all genres should be reserved places at the top.

quote: Originally posted by bipolarbear Pong just doesn't really have that retro feel, at least they didn't put htat crap on the list.

Pong is important because it demostrated that the concept of video games was (still is) valid -- there was (still is) money to be made there. In effect, it ushered in a whole new industrial sector.

Another thing is, Pong was fun at that time. That's what counts. That's why people tossed in quarters after quarters into the game, and that's how Atari was launched.

	27-04-2004 14:58									#78
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger The greatness of a game has something to do with how it impacts on the gaming industry as a whole, thus, groundbreaking games in all genres should be reserved places at the top.

Absolutely. The games that come later may have more polish, but credit must go to games that spawned an entire genre.

	27-04-2004 15:55									#79
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Isn't this list a year old?

Tetris and Starcraft are the only games I've played of the Top 10. And some Super Mario, but I think I was too old to enjoy that.

I miss one of my personal favorites, "Red Storm Rising" WW3 submarine simulator from Microprose that I had for both C64 and Amiga. I just loved lurking under the thermal layer, sending away some wire-guided torpedoes on a Sovjet carrier group, setting way-points so that the torpedoes would approach the target from multiple directions, all of them completely other than the bearing to my sub. Then hear the escort ships go crazy with their sonars when they detect the torpedoes all to late, and not being able to find me.

	27-04-2004 17:46									#80
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quote: Originally posted by Chemical Ollie Isn't this list a year old?

yes, I guess the thread starter couldn't find new news.

	27-04-2004 18:13									#81
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wat were the top 10 games.

And i agree wit that classic games being bullshit. Its a good game if it is a good game. If it relied on shitty ass graphic that used to be good. and thats all the game has going on... then it sucked anyway.

A good classic game is good when you play NOW. Good story plot for SP, good game design and system for SP or MP... those are elements that doesnt change.

Pong is the **** cause its a really well balanced game. Its a ****ing good game if you play now. That doesnt change.

No need to credit who did what first when you decide whats a better game IMO. Groundbreaking games should be respected in their own way, but that doesnt make them automatically good if they play shitty.

	27-04-2004 18:22									#82
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger Possibly, still, I dread clickfests. As a result, the only way I play RTS is solo, so I can have time to pause the game to look around and think about what to do. Since Warcraft 2 -- really, all Blizzard RTS - sucks in single player campaign mode, that's how I see the game.

how unethical. Thats borderline cheating!
you do realize your playing RTS. Realtime!

I agree. SP sucks on WC3 and starcraft. OMG, in order to survive... u must ally with ur enemy? ok whats new?

quote: I think it was better than some other systems(jaguar, and the Saturn IMHO)

u guys are just DC hatas cause yall are mostly pc gamers.

DC is loved by many people. thats what counts. *sniff (Zero goes off to cry because DC is getting picked on)

	27-04-2004 18:26									#83
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Tsk. My FATHER can make the difference between Civ and Morrowind. In Civ, you character doesn't appear on the screen

LOL funny story.

My dad saw me doing **** on the computer and he thought i was playing a game because wallpaper looked liked one to him.

he asked me why the animation was frozen.


Daymn yo, like whoa.

	27-04-2004 18:33									#84
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quote: Originally posted by Zero my point is: ask any non geeks. its all the same ****. tass, these people are waay more worth associating myself with than people like myself and you.

well my wife thinks all these games, are vaguely the same - she doesnt distinguish TBS, FPS, fighters, etc. Is that what you meant???

My daughter on the other hand certainly can tell the difference between an RPG and a game thats like Civ. And either of those from the Sims She, like several of her friends, much prefer an RPG theyve made up (I would call it just pretend play, but theyve formalized it to a degree, its very DnDish) Another of her friends loves the Sims. OTOH some adults whove suggested games to me, have suggested Civ2 (thats how I first got it) and SMAC.

Dare I say that your pals who play fighter games sound like the geeky ones to me??

	27-04-2004 18:36									#85
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quote: Originally posted by Zero how unethical. Thats borderline cheating! you do realize your playing RTS. Realtime!

Yeah. When I play age of Empires, I always make sure to take about 3000 years to go through the Bronze age. Since the game has only been out for about 8 years, ive only just started. Im afraid MS/Ensemble wont support the game anymore by the time I get to Iron

"Real time" my foot.

	27-04-2004 18:39									#86
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quote: Originally posted by Zero wat were the top 10 games. And i agree wit that classic games being bullshit. Its a good game if it is a good game. If it relied on shitty ass graphic that used to be good. and thats all the game has going on... then it sucked anyway. A good classic game is good when you play NOW. Good story plot for SP, good game design and system for SP or MP... those are elements that doesnt change. Pong is the **** cause its a really well balanced game. Its a ****ing good game if you play now. That doesnt change. No need to credit who did what first when you decide whats a better game IMO. Groundbreaking games should be respected in their own way, but that doesnt make them automatically good if they play shitty.

Are all your pals as eloquent as you are?

	28-04-2004 00:03									#87
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quote: The greatness of a game has something to do with how it impacts on the gaming industry as a whole, thus, groundbreaking games in all genres should be reserved places at the top.

But surely, you have to admit, that modern games can surpass the crap of the eighties. Just becasue a game came out first, doesn't necessarily mean that it was at all good, let alone one of the greatest.
I do think that the earlier games should be given a little bit more consideration, but not a reservation.
Yes, I agree with you about htose that may have inspired a genre, b/c wolf 3-d totally deserves to be higher than freaking DOOM, but I think that something like Pong or Pitfall should really just be eliminated.
If a game is to be a classic, it not only has to be good when it comes out, but it also, MUST stnad the test of time. It must have retro appeal. If it doesn't, then we could end up rating some piece of crap game higher, than others, purely b/c it was first.(Though I disagree with it, putting WOlf3-D before DOOM would be a good argument)

	28-04-2004 01:34									#88
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The 80's were wonderful- Personally, I find SMB3 or SMB2, or contra, or Iron Tank, or many other NES games much more entertaining than modern ones:

IN terms of story, the best RPG I have ever played was Dragon Warrior 4- logest, deepest, most complex story I ever saw, with varied individuals and fun adventures- I played some Sega Dream cast games, and saw people playing FFIX, and you know what? NO comparison in terms of fun, or even time invested.

I cans till remember the tune from Dragon Warrior one. Nothing from more modern console games even enters my mind.

	28-04-2004 02:59									#89
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GePap:
FF6

Dreamcast was weak on the RPG side (Skies of Arcadia is the best - it is very entertaining, but definitely not deep at all), and FFIX is one of the weakest of the series too.

	28-04-2004 06:31									#90
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IMO anyone who says the Japanese make all good games obviously doesn't look in the wargames market. Japanese wargames are horrid(from my experience, particularly KOEI ww2 games). Operation Europe was ridiculously unbalanced and difficult to play, PTO 1 was alright..but the AI blew, PTO 2 was far too complicated and required too much micromanagement, PTO 4 was too simplified and easy, though it does expand on the series.