24-04-2004 05:19									#1
	Way to Work Trigger Needed Support Apolyton

Basically, I need some way of getting the computer to create some units when a civ with more than one city and more than one unit is destroyed but without killing them with an event (that is, the civ must be destroyed naturally). Is there some hack, trick, programming loophole, or mod that can arrange this?

	24-04-2004 06:57									#2
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The key to what you want to do is knowing which city will be the last one to be captured. Its capture will kill the civ and also be the trigger for creating the units you want.

Select city X to be the last city. Pick a turn and use events to create enough strong enemy units (include "justonce" or events will continue to churn out more enemy units each turn) outside the rest of the cities to ensure that they are captured immediately. On the following turn, do the same for city X and use its capture to trigger the creation of the new units you want.

There might be a problem if you want to keep on creating new units on subsequent turns. I don't know if that is possible without changing events files.

Having events create spies and a supply of gold would also work if your scen has spies. Unless the civ has no capital, the capital city would have to be the last one lost and have to be taken by force.

	24-04-2004 07:16									#3
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That seems alright, but I don't think it will work for the idea I intend, which is a purely natural conquest that could happen on any turn. Oh, well, I'll just go with the original idea of triggering it by the capital's capture. That should be sufficient for my needs. Another question I have is how changing terrain works. I was given advice by Cyrion (I think) to create indestructible immovable units to block the creation of intervaled units until said capital is captured, then destroy these units with a terrain change. I have four spaces that need a wipe, and there are four sets of coordinates in the trigger. However, I got two desired spots and four I didn't desire. How does that system work?

	24-04-2004 12:24									#4
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quote: Originally posted by Patine That seems alright, but I don't think it will work for the idea I intend, which is a purely natural conquest that could happen on any turn

You still would need to know beforehand which city (X) will be conquered last. Is there any way you can use events to periodically reinforce X to make ensure that it is the last remaining city. Can you make city X the farthest from the enemy or do something else to be absolutely sure that it is the last one? If you can, then you should be able to make events do what you want.

Download Red Front 1.5, Colwyn's mod of Captain Nemo's RF 1.4 from the recent RF 1.5 thread in this forum. The Events3 file has 2 CHANGETERRAIN events plus some some subsequent events of the kind I think you are interested in. A brief look at how he does it will tell you more than any written explanation.

	24-04-2004 17:30									#5
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I recommend an assassination of their leader causing the collapse of their empire, i.e. a unique unit whose death results in a killciv command. Yes, the cities will all vanish, but the leader could be assassinated at any time, and by tying it to a tech trigger also given when the leader is killed it should be quite simple.

That is, "when BigBoss unit killed" is a trigger, make three actions, "destroy BigBoss civ," a "The boss is killed! His gang scatters! Louie's boys start moving their Enforcers in on his old turf!" explanatory text, and "give Enforcer Hiring tech to Louie's Boys." Then another event saying that if Louie's Civ has that tech, create an Enforcer unit at a given set of coordinates. Without the JustOnce trigger, and of course Enforcer Hiring shouldn't be researchable.

Sorry for the vagueness, I don't know what you're planning so I cooked up some mobster BS for the example. And I don't have the macro language memorized, so pardon my errors in nomenclature too.

	24-04-2004 19:31									#6
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@ Patine

It would help lot if you were much more specific about what you want to do. For example:

quote: Originally posted by Patine I need some way of getting the computer to create some units when a civ with more than one city and more than one unit is destroyed but without killing them with an event (that is, the civ must be destroyed naturally)

1. How many cities, 3 or 30 and what size?
2. Ditto for units.
3. Do cities have to exist after the civ is destroyed or can a KILLCIV command (see Elok's post) be used?
4. Time frame? Does this have to happen in 10 or 100 turns? What' s your prefence?
5. Can this be a completely passive civ that does nothing?
6. Does a specific enemy civ have to take over the cities?

Similarly, the following raises more questions than it answers:

quote: Originally posted by Patine I have four spaces that need a wipe, and there are four sets of coordinates in the trigger. However, I got two desired spots and four I didn't desire.

I think your're saying that there are 4 locations where you want to do a CHANGETERRAIN but, beyond that, I don't understand what you're trying to say.


OK, lets get back to the original problem:

1. A civ needs to be destroyed naturally during a random turn.
2. Its destruction is to trigger subsequent events.
3. I suggested that you need to know which of the civ's cities will be the last to be captured, so that its capture will both kill the civ and can be used as the trigger for other events.

I think it can be done as follows:

1. The civ has n cities ( n = whatever the actual number is).
2. Create a special unit ZZZ with D=99, indestructible.
3. Leave city 1 either undefended or with a minimal garrison of a weak unit.
4. Garrison city 2 with only a ZZZ homed to city 1.
5. Garrison city 3 with only a ZZZ homed to city 2.
.
.
.
6. Garrison city n with only a ZZZ homed to city n-1.
7. Set all cities to autoproduce only city improvements and no units.

What will happen is that as soon as city 1 is captured, city 2 becomes defenceless. Capture of city 2 renders city 3 defenseless and so on. At the end of this daisy chain, only a defenceless city n will remain and its capture will end its civ.

You can then use the capture of city n to trigger whatever other events you need.

The time required to complete the process can likely be controlled to some extent by slowing enemy forces through the use of weak blocking units.

	24-04-2004 21:19									#7
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Okay, I'll spill the beans. The player I need conquered is an Iraqi player circa 2003 (the headline hogger). Specifically, I need the US and Allies to conquer them. Capturing (er, destroying) a Saddam Hussein unit may work, however. When Iraq is conquered, Iraqi resistance forces (a third player; al-Sadr's boys and affiliates, not Hussein loyalists) begin generating units. This scenario is risky, as the conflict's not actually over in the real world. Any suggestion with this info revealed?

	24-04-2004 22:01									#8
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Clearly you don't want Iraqui cities destroyed. Therefore KILLCIV won't do the trick. What I suggested will work if Iraqui cities are captured in the right order. IIRC, Herbstnebel uses more or less the same technique of very high D units homed to another city as a means of forcing the attacker to follow a particular sequence of captures in order to avoid astronomical casualties.

If you don't like the idea of sequencing captures, you could try putting a heavily garrisoned Iraqui city in remote, mountainous terrain that it is so difficult to get at that it definitely would be the last city to be captured.

Your idea is really cool, a scenario about guerilla warfare. How do you intend to handle "al-Sadr's boys and affiliates" (civ 3)? A city somewhere in Iran or Syria or an engineer in some remote corner of the map? It might be very interesting if the color of civ 3 matched that of its host country.

PS
What if the civ 3 city or engineer icon looked like normal terrain. A player might go nuts looking for it.

Last edited by AGRICOLA on 24-04-2004 at 22:07

	24-04-2004 22:31									#9
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or make it outright invisible.

	24-04-2004 22:41									#10
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Here's the plan as I have it. I'll use the Holyland map, but all surrounding countries will be under a fourth 'neutral' player under no-negotiation/alliance with all three beligerents. I like the idea of the Iraqi resistance having a camouflaged city in Iran or Syria, actually. I also considered 'missile' land units for suicide attacks. I do need some good modern Middle East units however, more up to date than Exodus. If you have any other suggestions (or know of any good units), I'm always happy to hear them.

	24-04-2004 22:42									#11
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@ Smiley
That's a much better idea.

But how does one end a scenario like this? Do the Allies enter Iran, Syria or another country in the search for the civ 3 (insurgent) base(s), thereby starting another conflict or two. Or do they give up as new insurgent units keep appearing?

This is beginning to sound terrifying close to reality.

	24-04-2004 23:57									#12
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I think maybe making the US and Allies the protagonist, with all Iraqi cities being objectives, thus the US has to hold as many cities as possible until they can reasonably handover power to a surrogate regime that will have to maintain order thereafter (at the last turn of the scenario). I think the US could hunt al-Sadr into foreign territory, and I may even allow Iran or Syria to fight back against such intrusion, thus allowing a complete (but costly) victory.

By the way, any ideas on how to handle a Spanish withdrawl.

	25-04-2004 02:55									#13
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Suggestion: Give Leonardo's workshop to the allies. When the time comes for Spain to withdraw, give a Spanish withdrawal tech to the allies through events, that makes Spanish troops obsolete, replaceable by immobile-non combat units (abbandoned supplies?) of the same shield value. You could even make Spanish withdrawal researchable by the guerilas, then trigger the event that gives Spanish withdrawal to the allies. You could even work in a Polish, Japanese etc. withdrawal the same way.

	25-04-2004 04:39									#14
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That's a great suggestion Tanelorn; I think it will do nicely. What I really need now is good unit graphics. Anyone with suggestions on where to look. Tanelorn's 'abandoned supplies' idea unit, plus smaller allied troops (some of whom may be withdrawing) and suicide bombers are a priority; most others are likely easy to locate.

	25-04-2004 04:56									#15
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I need an opinion on an idea I thought of to make Syria and/or Iran resist invasion but not arbitrarily declare war. I'd have one or more insurgent 'bases' (camaflaged cities) in each of Iran and Syria (each of which would be a separate player from both the neutrals and three main players) who would still begin, like the neutrals, at no-negotiation/alliance with all three main players and each other (and stay that way with regard to the two Iraqi factions). There would then be barbarian 'border guard' units (one type for each of Iran and Syria) lining their border with Iraq. If anyone but the Allied player destroys one, it would just be recreated in the same spot. If the Allies destroy one, the country their designated to turns to aggression. How does this sound for an idea, anyone?

	25-04-2004 06:18									#16
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I think that I understand what you propose. IMHO, it would be ineffective and probably next to impossible to implement.

Syria and Iran are allied with the Allies. Therefore, there would be no problem if Allied units encroached on the ZOC's of their cities or passed through the ZOC's of their units. In effect, Allied units could move freely. OK so far?

The line of border guards would pose no problem whatsoever. The Allies could use an aircraft to lead ground units through the border guards' ZOC's.

Finally, how do you intend to replace any border guards that are destroyed. As there is no way to tell which one was destroyed and needed replacing, you would have to spawn a complete new set every time one was killed. The scen would be awash in border guards PDQ. You'd probably have to devote most of the events file to respawning them.

This idea is a dodo: it won't fly.

	25-04-2004 06:47									#17
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The only alternative is to allow negotiation between the Allies and Iran and Syria, thus allowing arbitrary wars between these factions. I suppose it could be explained that either Syria or Iran might be upset by Iraq's demise and decide to take action, and there were rumors Bush planned a regime change for either or both in late '03, so it could be justified. Any comments or better ideas anyone?

	25-04-2004 07:55									#18
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That sounds like an excellent approach which might pose quite a problem for the Allies. How would they locate, get to and eliminate the insurgent bases (cities) inside Iran and Syria without starting wars with the host countries?

The dodo just grew wings. This one has some really interesting possibilities.

	25-04-2004 08:08									#19
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I suppose the Allied player would either have to forge alliances with the host countries through shrewd diplomacy (hoping they don't say 'give us the tech that makes nukes or we cancel the alliance' mid-operation) or declare they must expand their 'regime change' program to Iran and Syria for 'harboring terrorists.' Do you have any better ideas on the issue?

	25-04-2004 12:21									#20
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@ Patine

Check your PM.

	26-04-2004 03:48									#21
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I've read my PM, AGRICOLA, and you've got some great ideas there, including the proposed scenario name. I've got a good idea how to handle things now from the thread and PM's (though final details have to be sorted through), and now all I need are some good Post-Modern Middle Eastern graphics (if anyone's got some or knows where some are, please help me). Thanks alot AGRICOLA, and Tanelorn for his Spanish withdrawl idea, as well as Elok for possible trigger technical issues. Watch for the beta on this forum.

	26-04-2004 11:42									#22
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quote: Originally posted by Patine Another question I have is how changing terrain works. I was given advice by Cyrion (I think) to create indestructible immovable units to block the creation of intervaled units until said capital is captured, then destroy these units with a terrain change. I have four spaces that need a wipe, and there are four sets of coordinates in the trigger. However, I got two desired spots and four I didn't desire. How does that system work?

Yes, it was me!

Could you please explain what you wanted/achieved a little better: I'm afraid I didn't get it

	27-04-2004 03:18									#23
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Basically, I needed a terrain change in four separate squares, of which only two were actually adjacent to one another. I entered the coordinates of all four in the one line offered by the trigger menu. When the trigger activated, the two that were adjacent to one another (which I entered first) and four others adjacent to them were changed, but the other two I wanted changed were unchanged, and the unit used to block the unit creation trigger remained on each. How does this trigger system work.

P.S. I probably need more than four spaces changed now, with my bigger map.

	27-04-2004 13:03									#24
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The ChangeTerrain event coordinates should be the four corners of a rectangle like this:

code:
1 - 2
|   |
4 - 3

	27-04-2004 17:15									#25
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DP

	27-04-2004 17:15									#26
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Mercator was faster!

So, if your 4 spots are not adjacent, you'll need four different events, and in each the 4 "corner points", as described in Mercator's post, will be the square itself!

And if the squares are adjacent, then you just have to determine the correct coordinates for the corners so that the desired squares are included in them!

BTW: beware the order of the corners (if you're not targetting only 1 square, obviously), as it doesn't work if the order isn't the one described by Mercator (as I bitterly learned why trying it in my scen...)

	28-04-2004 01:52									#27
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That info should solve my problem Cyrion and Mercatore Uno. Thanks a lot. I should get this scenario up and running for a playtesting beta in short order. I still do need a good graphic for 'abandoned supplies,' however. Can anyone help me there?

	28-04-2004 15:49									#28
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You're quite welcome, assuming I was actually helpful somehow...

Anyway, to simulate the guerrilla insurrections, could you try changing pollution to "sabotage," like Underdark changed it to "slave revolt?" I assume Barbarians aplenty, unhappiness, ridiculous corruption, maybe some unit support problems, money issues, etc. You know, from "Ahmed Chulabi and the twenty thieves" and the terrific job they're doing. Adam Smith might be employed as a way to simulate stabilization.

Assuming Agricola didn't suggest these, similar, or better ideas in his PM.

	28-04-2004 17:40									#29
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quote: Originally posted by Elok Assuming Agricola didn't suggest these, similar, or better ideas in his PM.

Definitely not better than your ideas. IMO, your suggestions are great.

Love "Ahmed Chulabi and the twenty thieves" as a new form of government.

I only gave Patine some very broad stroke suggestions, not all that different from some of the things you have suggested. The problem was that posting at least one of them would have been a real spoiler.

	28-04-2004 18:13									#30
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I got the nickname from a Washington Post editorial which implied that the Iraqis themselves call the CPA, "Ahmed Chulabi and the Twenty Thieves." Give me no credit for that...