24-07-2004 15:16									#331
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So sorry,
I meant 1600 bc


920 AD is from another game

	24-07-2004 20:12									#332
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Sent to McMeadows

	25-07-2004 16:47									#333
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sent to F

	26-07-2004 00:40									#334
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1575 bc sent

	26-07-2004 01:46									#335
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1550bc to McMeadows

	26-07-2004 17:59									#336
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sent to jshelr, including a note for all civs

The Vikings, Carthegeans and Russians have agreed not to tech trade with the Mongolians untill further notice.

[edit: for all the worried souls in this Middle World, tech has been added to prevent misinterpretation]

PS bongo, with those horses heading my way, could you send a worker as wel, to build a road... We could trade,.. hmm if only for that war...]

Last edited by McMeadows on 28-07-2004 at 03:15

	26-07-2004 18:26									#337
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Interesting...hardly surprising though.

	26-07-2004 19:00									#338
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1550 BC sent to F

	26-07-2004 22:07									#339
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To McMeadows

	26-07-2004 22:54									#340
	Remove this text

So is it 920AD or 1550BC? It sounds like a bunch of tribes have Nationalism already...

	26-07-2004 23:05									#341
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I can actually see Bongo's modern armor just over the yonder hill.

Are we falling behind? Do we need an intensive session?

	26-07-2004 23:45									#342
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sent to jshelr.

The Mongols have attacked the Vikings without any warning in am attempt to prevent the Vikings from claiming free land. This action follows directly after declaration of the non-trade agreement. And war it is.

	27-07-2004 01:00									#343
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quote: Originally posted by Rommel2D So is it 920AD or 1550BC? It sounds like a bunch of tribes have Nationalism already...

Would this ancient age trade embargo happen to violate any rules btw?

	27-07-2004 01:02									#344
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Sent to F. I'll cut and paste the relevant section of the civ constitution into the next reply.

	27-07-2004 01:05									#345
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The relevant item is in this general section as item (d)

1-2 Players shall not exchange in-game information until they are represented on each other's foreign advisor's screen. They shall not exchange graphic map information before both have knowledge of Navigation.
a) In diplomacy without an embassy between the Tribes, a player may only offer technology already known by their Tribe. They may not offer or ask for unknown techs.
b) Players shall not coordinate military action unless an alliance is formally declared in the foreign advisor's screen.
c) Players shall not make reference to specific distances or directions until both have knowledge of Map Making.
d) Players shall not make Mutual Protection Pacts or Trade Embargoes unless they are declared in the foreign advisor's screen.

It's always possible that some other section also applies. My son's the lawyer and he's at work right now.

	27-07-2004 01:27									#346
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Trade embargos gets available with nationalism according to the civilopedia.

	27-07-2004 01:55									#347
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Mutual protection pacts likewise start with nationalism. I think you make a good point as to what should be the case.

In practice, with human players, agreement to work against a third player cannot be stopped. So, perhaps the best that can be done is to make it above board and post the situation where all can see on the thread.

Anyway, its all strictly business. Nothing personal.

	27-07-2004 02:20									#348
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There cannot be any doubt that you are violating rule 1-2d) now.

At the same time I fail to see what can be done about it, ideas anyone? I don't tink the admin can force you to start trading with me...

quote: Anyway, its all strictly business. Nothing personal.

Good quote, if I ever get the change, I'll rename conquered cities after it

	27-07-2004 02:55									#349
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Let's not argue, but in the spirit of debating the rules, if we wait until the game offers trade embargos, there is no need to put them on the thread because they appear in the diplomacy screen. Item (d) would be unnecessary if we all agreed that such actions had to wait for nationalism.

	27-07-2004 03:04									#350
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We have been carefull in what and when to discuss and we established embassies for that particular reason. As you mention yourself it's no suprise to come to such an announcement. We thought it would be just fair enough to let you know we have talked with the 3 of us and decided not to trade with you for a while.
It's PBEM not playing a computer and the diplo between the persons is an interesting part of the game, which is not perfectly implemented in the game as it are the single play options with a automatic save and sent function at the end of each turn.

	27-07-2004 10:17									#351
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This discussion isn't about rules, it's about etiquette. The basic idea behind point 1-2's optional sub-points was that PBEM diplomacy is such a dominating part of the game, it can usually overshadow every other part of the game. By adopting these limitations on diplomatic conduct, my hope was that more emphasis would fall upon strategic gameplay, while still allowing enough leeway for diplomacy to compensate for bad luck.

The 'embargo' announced above was clearly counter to the spirit of this ettiquette. There is no way to force any player to trade with another, but my hope was that prior to Nationalism, embargoes would only develop in extreme cases, when the disparity was so obvious that no announcement or explicit agreement would be needed between the players.

This game is a special case. Neither jshelr nor Bongo, as mid-game replacements, were explicitly asked to review and accept the etiquette/exploit list and take a stance on the options. This is my fault for not being thorough enough at that point in the game.

The fact that none of the three players involved questioned the issue themselves indicates a clear problem with 1-2d. Is it just a matter of raising awareness or is this an unworkable idea?

Followups to the main thread.

	27-07-2004 11:15									#352
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game is with Flandrien as far as I can still follow the track..

	27-07-2004 15:43									#353
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quote: Originally posted by jshelr d) Players shall not make Mutual Protection Pacts or Trade Embargoes unless they are declared in the foreign advisor's screen.

I have no desire to break this rule.
I also have no need to trade with the Mongols.


Now what ?



btw. 1550 bc was sent yesterday

	27-07-2004 15:54									#354
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quote: Originally posted by Flandrien I have no desire to break this rule.

You are already breaking it.

quote: Now what ?

We continue play of course, as soon as I get home from work.

quote: btw. 1550 bc was sent yesterday

Must have been after I went to bed...around/after midnight?

	27-07-2004 16:11									#355
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Let me be clear. We are not breaking the rule. We posted the trade agreement in the thread as directed. There is no violation.

	27-07-2004 16:27									#356
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I finally understood your point, but you are still wrong.

You are violating the rule because you haven't declared a trade embargo in the foreing advisor screen, which isn't possible for another two ages. I don't see posting here as a substitute for nationalism being mentioned in the rules. Like it would be okay to exchande screenshots if you posted here when doing it?

Be a man, accept that you are breaking the rules(or acting counter to the game etiquette if that sounds better), stop making excuses.

Just remember that if I win this game, despite being dogpiled this early, I have forever earned the right to fart in your general direction

	27-07-2004 16:35									#357
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The lack of proper etiquette charge was a zinger for me. We were entirely open and honest when we informed Bongo that we were working together to offset the lead created by the SoZ.

Let's request a judge rule on this matter. Rommel, pls simply tell us to end that agreement if it is counter to the rules.

"This game is a special case. Neither jshelr nor Bongo, as mid-game replacements, were explicitly asked to review and accept the etiquette/exploit list and take a stance on the options. This is my fault for not being thorough enough at that point in the game." Rommel

I agree to the rules and want to abide by them and knew about them in advance. However, as the rule stands, we didn't break it. We are not even close to breaking it. There is nowhere I can find where it says we must wait for nationalism to limit our tech offers to particular civs, nor has this been the case in games I've participated in. I didn't ever interpret it as preventing a technology group from forming. That's what this group essentially is. (There are no trade roads to the Mongols.)

And, it was sparked for a good reason: the SoZ was life threatening.

I think we are ok and that this whole debate was a tempest in a teacup. You can't prevent civ leaders from working together to offset an advantage of a civ that has captured a signficiant military advantage.

Russ

Last edited by jshelr on 27-07-2004 at 16:47

	27-07-2004 16:43									#358
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Do you want a ruling on this matter?

Why? He can't force you to start trading with me? Your trade embargo will just be split into 3 individual civs not wanting to trade with me.

	27-07-2004 17:10									#359
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exactly my point. Why all this fuss on the interpretation of a passage in the etiquette formulated by someone with all good intentions. Either it's going to be this embargo, or one in which we all individually state we don't trade with the Mongolians, which in a way we don't even have to speak out.

I think we all are trying to play in the spirit of the game and that's where the etiquette essentially was intended for anyway.

	27-07-2004 20:00									#360
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Where is the save now anyway? Turned out I've played the save I got from flandrien already. I sent 1525bc to McMeadows 1853 local time yesterday (1753GMT).