28-04-2004 08:10									#61
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

OK folks we just got a letter from PAL.

Go ahead and read and comment

Its in the topped FA thread and also the PAL diplo thread.

Im with UnO and Beta on this one.

Make a decision and stick with it.

But Ill go further and say this is an elimination/ survival game.

Take out the weaker third CIV here, and get ready to take out one CIV on the other continent if we have to later. And if we can talk one on the other continent into an alliance to knock out the fourth team, then thats even better.

And Honor our commitments, thats gonna help a ton in game 2.

Last edited by conmcb25 on 28-04-2004 at 08:34

	28-04-2004 08:42									#62
	Inflate your Upload Space

I just posted a variant PAL alliance plan (sort of a Beta plan ) in the PAL Foreign Affairs thread.

	28-04-2004 08:47									#63
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by Beta I just posted a variant PAL alliance plan (sort of a Beta plan ) in the PAL Foreign Affairs thread.

I saw it and there is merit to a three way tech trade.

And merit to deciding who we take to game 2.

But I am uncomfortable telling PAL who actually is to the southwest right now. Im not sure its exactly legal within the rules of this game.

The farthest I wanted to go was to let them know there was a third.

Are you ever on AIM Beta? That seems to be the best way to talk to FP and they have a chat function on AIM where you can do a three or more person conversation.

If not maybe I can get F-P into our chat room.

You going to be available this weekend anytime?

	28-04-2004 09:55									#64
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Looking at this discussion, I'm now leaning toward a 3-way alliance. It's certainly workable, in my humble opinion. We can create an unholy alliance that gives all three of us great power, against what are hopefully divided French and German teams.

Any war between any of the three powers of this continent will cause a certain economic and tech lag. If our continent does desend into conflict, a whole can of worms will be opened. Better for all of us to work together for a common goal rather than fight one another.

Besides, as has been pointed out, both will make great allies. PAL has close Apolytonian ties and is willing to work with us. CDG can be subtly manipulated, and is also willing on it's own to work with us. If PAL's agressive tendancies can be directed at the other two teams, we're safe.

Basically, a three way is a great, workable, and safe way for us to run things. And hell, if CDG and PAL DO backstab us, it's just par for the course.

	28-04-2004 12:14									#65
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

You want to try to convince the best early war team to wait for a navel invasion before it attacks?

No, no.

Their best skills lie in early war. Why would they voluntarily put their bests skills in their pocket to not use?

A three way tech alliance does sound good, but its not going to be much of an advantage. Let me explain.

We three combine to get techs quick. We are happy and loving (uke: ). We meet up with GWT and BAT and discover that they have been playing nice. Now our assumed huge tech lead has been just diminished to only a few techs. Also, the techs that we have and they don't, would all then become cheaper for them to research, further hurting our tech lead. Plus, we will have to still be able to eliminate both. All this while trying to hold together a very nervous alliance.

Better to show our allegence to who ever we pick * cough* *PAL* *cough* by working together with them to eliminate the third.

Now, lets say we team up with PAL and eliminate CDG. Now on the off chance that BAT and GWT do cooperate, the tech situation will equal. If we are all on equal standing, we win. And, of course that would mean that we gang up on GWT and kill the germans.

Bottem line is that a three way alliance would be very difficult to pull-off and then even more difficult to maintain.

	28-04-2004 14:17									#66
	Remove this text

I'd like to ask, perhaps beg, us to not make any alliances in the week that I am away.

We have time to consider this, time to scout things out, build up relations, and time to catch a few more diplomatic developments.

Clearly we're on the right track to good relations with both CDG and PAL. Let's keep it up. But let's not hop into bed with either of them just yet.

--Togas

	28-04-2004 14:40									#67
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Ok, but a choice needs to be made by us before one is made for us.

I we want to try to make sure that we have the time, we should hold the save for as long as we can (that doesn't mean that we can't play the turn, we just have the Consuls not send it until the last possible moment of the 24 hours).

	28-04-2004 16:48									#68
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by Donegeal Ok, but a choice needs to be made by us before one is made for us. I we want to try to make sure that we have the time, we should hold the save for as long as we can (that doesn't mean that we can't play the turn, we just have the Consuls not send it until the last possible moment of the 24 hours).

I agree with Donegeal on this one. I think all would agree that consensus is building towards confirming the alliance with PAL. This could be done immediately, and IMO, would be the strongest signal we could send to PAL that we are on the same wavelength as them.

CDG, well, Vander has done the diplo thing, and we have some time to discuss how we want to handle it - and to engage PAL in that discussion.

As to your earlier point Don. I see your logic in the tech discussion. But we should let PAL be the judge if they feel the need to flex their military muscle early, or whether the 3-way alliance appeals to them.

So Togas - I would recommend that we NOT wait for your return to firm up the PAL alliance. We do it asap. Or as this little guy says - do it now!

	28-04-2004 17:18									#69
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

don, I disagree that this game will certainly all be over by the Medieval period. A team may be eliminated on our lands before then, sure, but I doubt it is obvious that the other two will have duked it out to the destruction of one by then. It would be very possible to have to wait for a sea invasion for a second elimination.

With that poweful message from PAL, I am for committing to a good relationship with them now. If we don't ally before Togas returns, we should basically ACT as if we are allied. We need to get this relationship firmed up (if not COMPLETELY official) before PAL meets, or at least has talks with, CDG.

Togas, I am not sure, with how fast the turns come, that we can afford to wait a full week and be half-assed about things for all that time. They have not mentioned an alliance yet, let's not do so either until your return, but do our utmost to keep them in alliance mode. We could even tell them if the issue is raised that one of our Consuls is away and we have a rule whereby only a unanimous approval of Consuls can result in an alliance, or that you are the President of Consuls or something. The key thing is to ensure that we show them we are as interested in close relations as they seem to be.

A 3-way alliance vs the other continent? That is going to make the game very long, be difficult to maintain (more so than negotiating with just one partner), and would likely involve a sea invasion of considerable size, which will delay things greatly, and be extremely difficult in itself. We don't want to be in this game forever, but to progress as soon as possible. A 3-way alliance runs counter to that, and may require just too much of us. PAL and CDG would be talking to each other too, so we would not be in the privileged position of effectively controlling the alliance from a diplomatic standpoint. Sounds like more trouble than it's worth, especially since we would have to share what this continent has with 2 other civs longterm, and not just one.

	28-04-2004 18:33									#70
	Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by Donegeal Ok, but a choice needs to be made by us before one is made for us. I we want to try to make sure that we have the time, we should hold the save for as long as we can (that doesn't mean that we can't play the turn, we just have the Consuls not send it until the last possible moment of the 24 hours).

PAL for internal purposes (nothing to do with us according to F-P) have held the save for 24 hours anyway.

We can wait till tomorrow evening USA time to play.

That will be a delay of 48 hours right there.

PAL said they would play by around 1800 EDT today. We can play by lets say 2100 or 2200 tomorrow EDT. We can get away with that because the French do not play until early in the morning anyway. So they wont play till the third day early in morning USA time.

When the turn comes around again we can again delay around 24 hours. Ill just ask F-P not to forward until our usual playing time of around 2100 EDT.

Now for this three way alliance proposal. I have no problem using CDG as a tech partner till we get republic. BUT after that we really should consider eliminating them. We are going to build a military for security anyway, we plan on getting Zeus and those ancient horseman become less and less usefull as you go thru the middle ages. And most importantly this is an elimination game.

We have argueably the best early age warriors in the game just bending over backwards trying to make a deal with us. They have come right out and said they want to team up with us because we ARE that good, and they want to take the relationship to the next game.

If we take out CDG fairly early (Towards the end of the ancient age before our hoplites and ancient horseman lose there effectiveness), we are going to be sending a signal to the other continent. Wake up and do something before we come after you!

And I honestly cant believe there is a greater than 50-50 chance the Germans and French will team up. I could be wrong on this but really do we REALLY think this is going to happen?

This is an elimination game. Lets do whats "right" (at least whats "right" IMHO) and eliminate the weaker teams and move forward to the big game with a strong supporter.

I agree with MWIA a three way alliance is going to be difficult at best to manage and my guess is it is going to be a tough sell to PAL, who I might add again has bent over backwards trying to accomodate us.

This is CIV and an elimination game. There is nothing personnal here. We are playing to win and advance to the other game just like every other team in this series.

In the mean time lest use this game to sharpen our military skills and become the world power that we rightly should be

With that being said I think we should honor Togas's wishes. Using the one of consuls is in Japan on vacation right now is a true and valid excuse. And we can use that true and valid excuse with both PAL and CDG.

Because if you haven't read the CDG thread lately CDG is nervous right now and wants a more permannet relationship.

	28-04-2004 19:04									#71
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Tech partner till Republic is as far as I would go, personally.

3-way through the game is just a mess. PAL is the better ally, they will be itching for combat, let's propose the wait till republic thing to them, even us warmongers understand the need to swap govt.

In the mean time, be nice to CDG, but make sure we don't sign any NAP's, MPPs, or other damaging things for when the time comes. They are the weaker, because of map if nothing else, they will just have to realize that.

PAL is not going to go for a 3-way through the game. Why?

I wouldn't, and I get the impression they have a similar style to my own. 3-way is ludicrous when you have a civ that would be easy to eliminate now. Just giving you the view from the aggressive warmonger seats here.

so....who wants to be my neighbor in the intra team game?

	28-04-2004 19:20									#72
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Originally posted by UnOrthOdOx so....who wants to be my neighbor in the intra team game?

I would be UnO and we could take over the world together

	28-04-2004 19:59									#73
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

In that case I hope I'm not the OTHER neighbour...

	28-04-2004 20:32									#74
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

You're already at the top of "the list" for that game anyway.

	29-04-2004 04:35									#75
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by conmcb25 And most importantly this is an elimination game.

Agreed. But the question still remains: Once firmly allied with PAL, who do we want to eliminate?

I think that is a discussion we have with PAL as well.

	29-04-2004 05:01									#76
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

I think this is a fairly simple selection process.

1. CDG (easiest target)
2. GWT (hard to get to, but once we get there, they are the most hated team in our game)
3. BAT (lets hope that they do well against GWT)

	29-04-2004 19:45									#77
	Put an end to popups!

Something came to me last night while we were BSing away in chat after playing the turn.

There has been some talk about we should bring CDG along because they will get Beserkers.

Well what if CDG is just waiting to get Berserkers and they plan on stabing us in the back with them?

I just HATE those things and believe they are a very unstabilizing force in that game period.

Right now Im getting my a$$ kicked in a Middle Ages PBEM as France by the Danes with those &^%$ Berserkers. (Dont say a word GF )

GF has already told us that CDG is a loose cannon and MRex shoots from the hip.

Quite frankly I would be a lot happier if Berserkers were NOT in this game. They scare the crap out of me.

Thats something to think about, CDG maybe trying to get to the MIddle Ages as soon as possible so they can get that UU, about the time they have a substantial REX, and then start some $hit, while launching there Golden Age, and possibly becoming a REAL BIG headache for us.

Talk about back stabs in a three way alliance, thats my night mare folks.

(And to the warmongers of the bunch, YES, I do believe you already brought this up when we were discussing zapping CDG early in the game)

Last edited by conmcb25 on 29-04-2004 at 20:11

	29-04-2004 20:36									#78
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Honestly, I don't know how good we (you) are in diplomacy but CDG succeeded survive with (maybe) defenseless capitol against two greek warriors. I guess they are trying to get ASAP to the berserks to get a real treat to all others and thus survive to the next round even if they don't eliminata noone. Who will try to mess with them when they have 6-attack units against 3-defense?

	29-04-2004 20:58									#79
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by ormuzd Honestly, I don't know how good we (you) are in diplomacy but CDG succeeded survive with (maybe) defenseless capitol against two greek warriors. I guess they are trying to get ASAP to the berserks to get a real treat to all others and thus survive to the next round even if they don't eliminata noone. Who will try to mess with them when they have 6-attack units against 3-defense?

Well that really wasn't a diplomatic issue.

It was a team decision issue. And someone just pointed out (was that you?) That the direction we took, went back and forth. we were pretty close to doing it.

Diplomatically this team (Apoly) has historically been the best in the game. Beta is one of the best FAM guys I know, Im learning new stuff everyday, Vander is doing a great job, and Togas and OCT_X two of our consuls are experienced FAM guys.

I agree on the berserkers, they scare the he11 out of me.

	29-04-2004 23:09									#80
	Support Apolyton

from what little I've read, I fully agree that we should try and eventually kill off CDG, before PAL does it themselves. If we do this, PAL will likely fear not only our building capacity but our military as well. After that, we can cruise on to a long-term relationship with PAL.

	30-04-2004 03:06									#81
	Support Apolyton

OK one last pitch for the elimination of CDG before they get Berserkers:

Right now Pal has informed us they are 10 to 15 tiles NNE of the "Meeting Mountain", they have also told us that they have plenty of room for expansion.

And PAL has some pretty good builders, a better economy means a better war production capacity.

Now down in the south we have CDG a lot closer to us with there backs to the sea (back being east)

If you look at the over all map we will be cramping them or they us along the whole eastern side of our empire.

At our common border the two of us could not BOTH get a second ring.

So what does that mean?

PAL expands unhindered in the north.

CDG and Apoly are at least a tad bit stunted because of the conflicts, land wise, along our common border.

The middle ages are here.

PAL is big

Apoly is smaller with hoplites

CDG is smaller with Berzerkers

Who do you think the target will be?

This is an elimination game, I really think we need to do this.

	30-04-2004 03:09									#82
	Remove this text

quote: OK one last pitch for the elimination of CDG before they get Berserkers:

I thought this was part of the deal if we joined PAL?

Con, two things, I agree 100% with you, and 2)

Your typings getting better

	30-04-2004 03:17									#83
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Krill I thought this part of the deal if we joined PAL? Con, two things, I agree 100% with you, and 2) Your typings getting better

on number 2, thanks, I have been getting so much crap lately, Im actually trying harder

On 1, my guess is PAL is not going to like a three way alliance, they are in the business of elimination games. But again they understand that this one is different so I believe they want to eliminate the weaker team and take a friend forward. F-P understands and appreciates the utility of having a good alliance partner, he was with us for the ISDG, and he is a sharp guy. But we still have a substantial group here in favor of the three way alliance and we will hopefully bring this topic up this weekend, as I try and coordinate a chat with PAL.