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Togas
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California
Jun 2002
time: 21:35
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We should not base our foreign affairs strategy based on worst-case scenerios or fearful speculation.
We should base it on what is most likely to occur and what we WANT to occur. We then take active or passive steps to encourage what we want to happen.
So what do we want to happen? What would be best for us?
We want to be the team in this cute little triangle that neither team wants to fight. We will do this by creating a lucrative and beneficial relationship with CDG that gives both of us power, and we will do this with PAL by building a ton of Hoplites so that their warmongers will decide on their own that we'd be a very difficult team to fight with.
CDG is much more of a funloving team, a team that respects alliances, but also enjoys good plans and is easily swayed into short-sighted conflicts. We do need to be warry of another team convincing them to fight us, but we can win their hearts diplomaticly by having very beneficial trades in place and cooperative diplomacy.
PAL is not a diplomatic powerhouse. In fact, it's probably their worst trait. They don't believe in diplomacy. They're the ultimate warmongering team, and they will be swayed only by a showing of strength on our part.
Ideally, what should develop is a friendship with both, however, tension between the two. In the end we subtly push the two against each other, and side with the weaker of the two to ensure that neither wins, or that the one that wins is weaker than us.
The key is for THEM to fight each other, for THEM to take the losses, and for us to be the nation that is sought after as an ally and a friend.
And when we do come into the war, we come with strength, production, and numbers, and come into a war that we can control and we can win.
Therefore, I propose that we keep CDG happy, keep PAL friendly but distant. We buddy up too much, they will ask us to ally and we would not be able to turn them down easily. If CDG dies, our happy triangle falls and it's only us and PAL left. I do not want to be in that situation. That's a situation that we, truthfully, may not come out of alive.
--Togas
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Hot_Enamel
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Melbourne, Australia
Aug 2002
time: 14:35
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Normally, I would be scrambling over myself to align up with the weaker CDG for mutual protection against the more aggressive PAL.
But this game is different. It’s an elimination game.
I am going to assume GWT (Chinese Riders) & BAT are on the other continent.
That tells me, that BAT is going to be in a world of hurt when knights appear.
And there is nothing we can do about it… and why would we want to ? When we want two teams eliminated ASAP.
So… BAT will be eliminated on the other continent
That leaves us with only 1 needing elimination on this continent
We can do this the hard way, by eliminating PAL.
Or the easy way by eliminating CDG.
Removing PAL from the next game is quite attractive, however I think I prefer the safe route and just removing CDG.
An alternative is that GWT & BAT ally themselves on the other continent.
I just can’t see that happening, however if it does, then we need a damn good partner on our continent. Again, although CDG’s berserkers sound appealing if we have to invade another continent, I think PAL is the stronger team, and one that I would prefer on my side.
The third thing we have to consider, is the desire of the smaller teams to eliminate us in this round.
PAL & CDG uniting would be devastating to us. So we have to pick a partner soon, and make the offer before PAL & CDG become too friendly. Get the long-term alliance agreed to ASAP before they can align against us.
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Aidun
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The Hague, the capital of the civilized world
Nov 2002
time: 06:35
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It is difficult to develop a plan for this. In my view there is not something like THE plan for THE scenario that is going to happen, there are more.
Togas' plan is a good plan and when I read the posts in this thread I first agreed with him. Why? Because there was the most logic in it. Personally I don't see a PAL-CDG alliance happening. Logical is to eliminate the weakest team first. That is but locical in a game that has winning as its final goal, while this is a game for survival.
Donegeal formulated the other option very clearly in his last post, just above:
quote:
So Con, how much does F-P want to beat us up? How much would it mean to him to have taken out one of the top contenders? |
This is possible to and is from PAL's point of view a very strategic step towards ultimate victory.
However, At this moment there is for PAL little to gain from starting a war against us. We have hoplites and with those we are too strong for them to eliminate. Better for them is to wait for the next age when there are better weapons to fight us. If PAL wants to eliminate us, then they will wait for the mevieval age and then team up with CDG against us.
Then how do we know that PAL has this plan? If PAL is very friendly with CDG and does not go to war with CDG, then we know that PAL is our true enemy and every alliance we sign with them is then meant to conceal this.
I think ultimately that for the moment Togas' strategy is the best and when the time moves on and events happen, such as war or treaties, then we can truely determine our strategy for surviving this game.
Aidun
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conmcb25
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Angmar
Aug 2002
time: 23:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Donegeal
Ok, as Con seems to have the best relationship with Fried-Psitalon (the leader of PAL), I think we need to get his assesment of all aspects.
So Con, how much does F-P want to beat us up? How much would it mean to him to have taken out one of the top contenders? |
F-P has no love for the Germans, he has already had a run in with them where they gave him crap fpr trying to move the game along and he told them to piss off. F-P knows CDG is not the sharpest knife in the drawer. F-P knows a lot of people at Apoly and the impression I have gotten from him is that an Apoly-PAL Axis would be a favorable idea. Also F-P has no real connection with the French and why would he?
F-P views us as the expert builders in this game, the whole game. He has said as much and because of that our attributes compliment PAL's attributes (Which Togas was right on the mark on) Its hit em early and hit em hard. Or at a minimum: Harass, harass, Harass em to death.
Now just remember F-P and I have communicated a lot but we have "danced around" the real issues in this game because we did not have contact in game and it wouldn't be fair. So we have only talked about general topics, NOT game specifics. So to answer your last paragraph, I dont know how much it means to him to knock out a top contender. I honestly dont know. But F-P knows all we have to do is knock out two teams and F-P knows have friends in the final game will be a good thing. Even though diplomacy is probably (As Togas stated) not there strenght.
quote:
Originally posted by Donegeal
Do you know anything about the other players on the team? |
I dont really know, but I have joined the Ladder in the past couple of months, not to play online MP games but to collect intell  . My impression is the Ladder guys are a bunch of sharp CIV players who now how to mount an attack quickly and effectively. Its in the nature of how they play. And I would assume some of the better players in the ladder have joined the team, or else quite frankly why would F-P play with them? And make no mistake F-P is a dam good CIV player.
quote:
Originally posted by Donegeal
Another thing we need to think about is what is PAL's reaction to us going to be? What type of PBEM strat are they going to use? |
I honestly dont know, my guess is how the Ladder handles us will depend a lot on how we handle them. If we dont ally I expect to see at least some sort of choking strategy and possibly even a dagger strategy. F-P will now that as builders essentially right now with a castle strategy he will have to do what he has to do to upset that strartegy if we dont ally with him. I mean if you were F-P wouldn't you do that? Knowing that if I dont do something to the best builders in he game they will eventually do something to me? And all he will have to do is knock out a settler or two, or capture a couple of workers. Imagine how that will set us back. We are already behind them in growth because of there early settler hut pop and they are agricultural and industrious.
Now a lot of the above is my best guess. It is not necessarily a fact. I think my opinion on this matter has been well stated. But we have to hear from the whole team on this. My opinion is how we handle the Ladder will probably determine whether we advance or not. So this is a very important decision at least in my opinion and we need team input on it.
If we decide on a hands off strategy then so be it. I dont agree with that strategy BUT I will bow to the wishes of the team.
Here is a link to The Play Styles of Other Teams Thread
and
MP Strategies by F-P
If you want insight into F-P's CIV Playing mind and probably the collective CIV playing mind of the Ladder then read this article.
Then you will know why a choke is different from a dagger and why we are calling our strategy so far a castle strategy 
Last edited by conmcb25 on 26-04-2004 at 20:29
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wervdon
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Right now, I think we still lack the information needed to make the best choice. (ideally we'd at least know where PAL is and what their terrain looks like).
This clearly does cause us to have to re-evaluate our plans with CDG though.
What stinks is that we appear to be between PAL and CDG which makes me very glad we are Greeks, otherwise we'd be looking at a potentially serious problem.
Somebody has got to go from this continent, and we don't want it to be us. And unfortunately, I think this is one of those cases where not making a decision is worse than either choice. So we pick an ally, and go with it.
My inclination is to go with CDG as an ally:
1) We already have good relations with them.
2) I think they are probally less likely to backstab us.
3) I think they are less likely to fight an effective war against our hoplites if they do backstab us.
4) They should be easier to control in the long run, even into the next game than PAL.
5) Our tech deal with them should already guarantee us short term superiority to PAL.
Siding with Pal's attractive too:
1) We know CDG is weak.
2) We should be able to get good relations to PAL.
3) They would be a stronger ally if we can trust them.
4) We don't know what PAL's land looks like and the unknown means deciding to attack this is riskier than CDG.
5) PAL is more likely to kick our ass in this game than CDG.
IMO siding with neither triples the odds that we will end up fighting both. (Edit: In the middle ages anyways, I doubt they would feel confident enough in the ancient era due to hoplites: However with our tech deal that is coming fast)
Last edited by wervdon on 26-04-2004 at 20:12
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Togas
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California
Jun 2002
time: 21:35
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This came up in chat:
Should BAT be eliminated by GWT, I would have no problem ganging up on the weaker CDG and finishing this game for good. Once one team is gone, it's "sudden death" and the next team to go ends the game. CDG will be the easiest for us to eliminate.
My fear is that BAT and GWT find themselves at a standstill or worse, ally themselves. If that happens and CDG dies, then we'll be stuck on this continent with only PAL and in that situation, PAL is going to do the logical thing -- they're going to try to beat us.
And knowing their skill, they are probably the team with the best chance of beating us. I'd rather plan for us to try to avoid the one on one situation from developing.
--Togas
Last edited by Krill on 27-04-2004 at 01:52
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Krill
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On a cold wet rock, in the middle of the Atlantic Ocean.
Dec 2003
time: 05:35
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As you all know, this is an elimination game, and any one of us (PAL, CDG, Poly) will be eliminated.
And since we have only just discovered PAL, they will (more than likely) have a lot of land to expand into. ANd they are Agri. And they got an early settler. They will be able to equal or beat us in a REX, even while aiming at building up an economic/military base for future attacks.
They will be a powerhouse, but they cannot archer rush us (because of the hoplites and the 30shield archer). It does not make sense for them to waste a GA without the ability to follow up with all the swordsmen they can create, so I believe they are going to be attacking either us or CDG in about 40 turns, with swordsmen, and a few JTs.
EDIT: why can I edit Togas' post?
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Kloreep
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of the pillow
Jun 2002
time: 00:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Togas
This came up in chat:
Should BAT be eliminated by GWT, I would have no problem ganging up on the weaker CDG and finishing this game for good. Once one team is gone, it's "sudden death" and the next team to go ends the game. CDG will be the easiest for us to eliminate.
My fear is that BAT and GWT find themselves at a standstill or worse, ally themselves. If that happens and CDG dies, then we'll be stuck on this continent with only PAL and in that situation, PAL is going to do the logical thing -- they're going to try to beat us.
And knowing their skill, they are probably the team with the best chance of beating us. I'd rather plan for us to try to avoid the one on one situation from developing.
--Togas |
Exactly.  If and when one of the two "lost" civs dies, then we can kill CDG without worrying about the consequences. But otherwise, it could just create a situation where PAL decides to take us on to try to end the game.
quote:
Originally posted by Krill
And since we have only just discovered PAL, they will (more than likely) have a lot of land to expand into. ANd they are Agri. And they got an early settler. They will be able to equal or beat us in a REX, even while aiming at building up an economic/military base for future attacks. |
We don't know how much land they have, but yes, it's likely they have a little more elbow room than us and CDG.
quote:
Originally posted by Krill
They will be a powerhouse, but they cannot archer rush us (because of the hoplites and the 30shield archer). It does not make sense for them to waste a GA without the ability to follow up with all the swordsmen they can create, so I believe they are going to be attacking either us or CDG in about 40 turns, with swordsmen, and a few JTs. |
I wonder if they will head for horses instead. On a standard map, they may find they need to cover ground, and if they're attacking CDG, they won't have to worry about horses against hoplites. Still, it's possible they'll go for slowmovers.
quote:
Originally posted by Krill
EDIT: why can I edit Togas' post? |
Bu- err, feature of private forums. MarkG was going to fix it when it was first discovered, but people had actually come to like it and he left it as is. (For one thing, ministers couldn't edit their orders in to the turnthreads without it.)
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GodKing
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Detroit
Feb 2002
time: 00:35
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Guys – we are F!!cked.
Look at what we actually know.
- 3 of us on this landmass
- 2 of us in unknown locations – probably to our due West and our NW. They may be on the same landmass with each other, or they may be on their own landmass each – we don’t know. Worst case it that they are on their own islands and we will NOT find them until astronomy or navigation – too late to do anything about them.
- This is an ELIMINATION GAME – 2 teams must die completely.
OK, well, there are two targets right here.
We know that there is more that one ivory in this game – we can see one near the eastern coast due north of CDG. If there are 2 on this land mass, chances are there are lots more – up to 7 on a standard sized world (IIRC). We are in a race for ZEUS, and ZEUS is our best chance of winning this game.
We will know where the iron is in about 15 turns. That may be a major benefit (or not, if we have none and everybody else does), but we will have to wait and see if anybody else has any first.
Lets assume worst case – the other two teams are on separate islands – and they are not smart enough to go and explore with suicide galleys or what not. Although they would make ripe targets – they are so far away that we will never have the chance. PAL has great treats – as a mater of fact, I would say the best two for this game – agricultural and industrial – fast workers and lots of food. This is a great way to pop rush an army at short notice. Their UU may get them some early barb workers to help out, and may provide them with an early GA to further their expansion.
We have a good UU, but only if we are attacked with it. We are defensive, and we know it. We need ZEUS if we are going to ever effectively go hostile. And we need to. CDG is in terrible terrain, with a late UU, one bad trait (seafaring, although it will get them a curragh to map out the landmass fast – 3 movement).
I ran many maps – and I would bet that PAL is all by themselves with LOTS of land to grow into (although I suspect that there may be a good part of it as jungle – we need to get a curragh up there and fast to scout things out.). While us and CDG sort things out down south, PAL grows huge and just takes on the victor, and it will be a fight between us. Not a good proposition.
WE HAVE 4 WAYS THIS COULD WORK OUT
1 – We attack CDG, defeat them, then attack PAL
2 – We stick our heads in the sand (Just like RP did – sorry, but true. I urged war from early on, and I think we could have taken out ND with our swords, but people decided that it would be best to try peace. Now we on RP have no chance). Peace is NOT a viable solution in Civ, let alone on an elimination style game IMHO.
3 – We get lucky, one of the other teams on the other landmass dies early, then we take out CDG with PAL
4 – We join forces with CDG, acting like one team, then take out PAL together.
I like option #4. Think about this – with our research together, we will be in republic far earlier than anybody expects. We have traits that compliment each other. IF the other continents are separate landmasses – with the Vikings we can actually get to them and attack them. With our UU and our joint research, we can take out PAL.
PAL is our biggest rival – and IMHO we should start targeting them NOW with CDG help. Start off by telling CDG that we met a PAL explorer on our landmass (which is all we can tell them until they meet them themselves) and then start discussing with them long term ways of KILLING PAL. This will include research treaties, NAP’s, Lux trades, and everything else that comes with sleeping with your sister.
Truth be told, I see taking out PAL FIRST as being our best way to survive, because it we take out CDG – we spent so much time on military while PAL spend time in infrastructure that we will be a very ripe second target.
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Hot_Enamel
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Melbourne, Australia
Aug 2002
time: 14:35
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The logistics of transporting our army to attack PAL needs to be considered. True, we dont know where they are exactly yet, but attacking PAL now is going to tough.
Horsemen can cover the distance quicker, but will not have any hopilite defense.
Swords will take a long time to reach them, and our support lines will not be roaded, so our replacements will also take time to reach the front lines.
PAL will have a picket line and see us coming, and will pop rush defenders and start their GA.
We can send some Hoplites to start our GA as well, but again... the GA produced troops will take a long time to reach the front lines.
If we are going to take on PAL, then the ancient age is not the best time. Yet if we wait, PAL will only get stronger.
PAL will also have the same logistical problems if they want to attack us or CDG.
CDG on the other hand is weak, close, and therefore an easy target.
The map makers chose a map that is supposed to be reasonably even. I doubt BAT & GWT are on their own islands. They will share a land mass.
GWT has never been an early peaceful builder. In every demo game, they have attacked their neighbours. I really believe BAT will be attacked by GWT, leaving only one team to be eliminated on our continent.
I still think CDG is the better target.
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wervdon
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I fully agree with GodKing.
Togas's analysis is correct too. If the other 2 teams stalemate or ally, then PAL is going to look at us as a target regardless.
We can't afford to wait and see what will happen in this case. And if we have to get stuck on this landmass in a fight for our life, then I'd rather it be us vs CDG than us vs PAL.
We need to scout PAL out ASAP, and come up with a plan to eliminate them with CDG's help. Then if we get lucky, that'll be it and we can move on. If not we have two good options: Use CDG's traits to help take out a civ over seas or just take out CDG ourselves.
Bottom line though: We are in a bad situation here, and we aren't going to get out of it by playing it safe or by doing nothing.
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GodKing
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Detroit
Feb 2002
time: 00:35
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At the beginning of our middle ages, where they will still be 4 techs behind at least.
Think, if we allign with CDG - we have 2 teams researching everything.
We will have our fast movers (ancient cav mostly) and our slow movers (hoplites and MI / swords) along with a sea invasion from CDG (mostly slow movers, as they will probably not have invention at the start of the conflict).
So, while we are upgrading our reserves of 15 horses into knights, PAL is still researching construction and currency.
Once done, one team relocates their core into PAL's old homelands (probably CDG - as we can support them, and they will be the military) as we go out together and find and kill some poor unlucky other civ.
This will cause us to use our GA to kill PAL instead of on growth, but so what. At the end of the PAL war - we can decide if we want to stick with CDG or if we will stab them in the back (probably stick with them, as they will probably be getting their UU on line). With their UU & GA, they can use the growth to effect a build up of their new core (old PAL lands) while mounting a sea invasion that will guarantee both our survival into the next game. We will be the reasearch and financial backer to their military against whomever appears to be the best target - we also can stay out of the war and spy for their attacks. Evil and dimented - just the way we like our plans - and mostly builder for us, which is the way we usually play.
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wervdon
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Personally:
I'd really like to see PAL and GWT both eliminated in this game just to make the next one easier.
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Octavian X
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Probably buried under piles of Literature, Biology, or Government homework
Jan 2002
time: 23:35
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I first want to see what kind of landmass we are working with, personally. If it's large enough, I'd prefer to ally with both CDG and PAL and use the combined force of all three of use to take out BAT and GWT. With our combined manpower, and civ expericence, even large operations requiring naval operations, etc., we could do it.
But, realistically speaking, I'm betting we'll need all the land we can get, even if it does mean taking out one of our neighbors. That's inevitable, almost.
The way I see it, it'll be easier to take out the stronger team first.
These are the factors I'm looking at:
-my percieved weakness of PAL's diplomacy (considering the nature of that site, as well as it's lack of team DG experience), and it's great abilities in the strategic area
-the lack of strategic experince of CDG, though I'm willing to bet it's got a slightly better diplomatic corp
CDG can be manipulated in our favor, to follow along with our strategies in order to form coordinated attacks. PAL could also be manipulated, not strategically, be diplomatically backed into a corner through a series of preplanned treaties, etc.
All things considered, then, I think if we were to involve ourselves in any sort of war, PAL would be best to take out, and quickly. We can't let them grow stronger, nor can we let that huge pool of Civ talent go against us, in this game and the next. We could then turn on CDG easily enough if need be.
But, I do think we're thinking a little to far into the future. Let's access the situation, I say, and bring up such planning again when we know the true size of our landmass, as well as the placement of iron and horses, as resoucrces (or lack thereof) will play a huge role in our plans.
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GodKing
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Detroit
Feb 2002
time: 00:35
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Your right Togas, it does sound like crying / whining - and it was not intended to be. It was intended to be a warining to not just do nothing.
You can learn a lot from the past - and what that experience showed me was that you have to be decisive, and agressive. The fact that RP still exists is a testimant to the use of diplomicy, and of how good and important it can be.
Sure, that game was a failure for RP - but it shows lots of important things. The importance of a good starting position (Lego). The importance of good planning (GS fending off an immortal rush). The importance of acting decisivly (The immortals not attacking at once, giving time for GS to bring in reinforcements and kill them off peicemeal). Good diplomicy and bad diplomicy (GoW feeling that we betrayed them, and siding with ND to take us out). That game was originally conseived as a test game for playing against other people, and it worked out excelantly I think as a learing tool.
I think we can make with our good diplomicy a lesser partner out of CDG. They must be quacking in their boots. Look at it from their position - crappy starting position, wedged between the best 2 teams, with a UU that is either great or crappy (depending on how it is used, and with the high cost associated with it how your home infrastructure is), with terrable traits for this game, Ivory near their closest neighbor (Zeus), and the knowledge that 2 teams HAVE to die. If I were them, I would be looking into a good cleaner to get that brown stain out of my shorts.
We have a great oportunity here - to use our diplomicay advantage, to battle agains the No1 team, to use our advantages of planning and building and strategically thinking, and to minimize our own risks.
Sure, people are saying that the next game is the real game, but I disagree. This game is real, and this game is now. Lets not just try and speed things up so we can play the next game, lets take advantage of the one we are in and have some fun here and now.
Oh, and one thing, this is LONG term stratagy we are talking. Short term, we need to keep working on REX and in making sure we have a) Zeus b) iron & c) Horses and as many lux as possible.
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wervdon
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quote:
Oh, and one thing, this is LONG term stratagy we are talking. Short term, we need to keep working on REX and in making sure we have a) Zeus b) iron & c) Horses and as many lux as possible.
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Can't argue with that. I'll add "d) Explore and locate PAL's territory" to that list though.
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26-04-2004 10:16
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