28-04-2004 20:13									#1
	Persistent bug. Got spare money?

This bug remains from first version of Civ III.

When you are trading some sources to a civ (Civ X) and that Civ is conquered by another one (Civ Y), your reputation is harmed because the AI consider that you have broken a treaty.

This bug is still present in C3C v.15 it happened to me in my last game.

Does someone know if it has been corrected in C3C v1.22?

Thank you.

	28-04-2004 20:17									#2
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It's not a bug - it's the way the game works, which was done that way to avoid exploits.

Otherwise you would be able to trade per turn quantities for lump sum quantities, even though you know the civ will not last the full 20 turns to receive its payment.

	28-04-2004 20:23									#3
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I have not heard this one in quite awhile. Never thought it was a concern.

	28-04-2004 23:45									#4
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I do believe that Firaxis decided not to fix that/take it out.

I personally hate it.

-Arrian

	29-04-2004 02:11									#5
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I think it's very well executed.
If you trade resources for big money to your neighbours, defend it.

And as said before, otherwise you could easily exploit it, by giving the resource, let an enemy take the city, and take the city back. (and sell the resource again)

	29-04-2004 05:37									#6
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It's still there and I personally hate it too. Cybershy's point about defending your trade partners is valid, but difficult to implement on a practical level in the context of the current unsophisticated diplomacy system, which IMHO is too shallow to allow trade-related and war-related diplomacy to interact much.

	29-04-2004 13:39									#7
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The problem is that you can make some poor sucker pay you up front for a deal you know won't last 20 turns.

If no up-front payment were involved, I think there should be no diplomatic hit.

Side question, if you want to help some small civ and *gift* them a resource. Do you still get punished if the 'deal' ends early cause they are wiped out or have their trade lanes cut?

	29-04-2004 16:11									#8
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I believe yes, you will still get punished. The AI recognises the resource trade, and will not take your magnanimous benevolence into account

	29-04-2004 16:12									#9
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The exploit arguments are of course valid, but I empathise with the first poster because it is damn annoying when you get blamed for something that isn't your fault.

	29-04-2004 17:15									#10
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Shouldn't be too hard to distinguish between deals involving up-front payments and pure per-turn deals.

	29-04-2004 17:47									#11
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quote: Side question, if you want to help some small civ and *gift* them a resource. Do you still get punished if the 'deal' ends early cause they are wiped out or have their trade lanes cut?

Yes, you do, and that's one of the big reasons I came to hate this part of the game.

-Arrian

	29-04-2004 20:45									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Aqualung71 I believe yes, you will still get punished. The AI recognises the resource trade, and will not take your magnanimous benevolence into account

I didn’t realize this and this explains much. Part of my regular game play involves gifting critical resources (horses, iron, etc.) to try to keep dying civs viable and slow the formation of a KAI that intends to swallow it. I can understand taking a rep hit from the civ the my gift recipient, but the entire world is just unfair.

	30-04-2004 08:44									#13
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Reputation also gets hit if somehow the only road(or sea route) connecting your two empires is broken due to war/pillage through no fault of your own.

	30-04-2004 12:04									#14
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For successful trading without reputation hits:
Only accept trades where there are multiple trade lanes or you control them anyway.

Examples:
Be careful with early naval trade. As the tradelanes only can follow the coast, one barb galley is enough to interrupt it. After astronomy life becomes easier, but cultural borders of enemies will still block trade. After navigation/magnetism you are home free, almost. Harbors can still be destroyed.

Tradelanes can follow roads on foreign ground but as war will block these lanes, my general advice is to trade to neighbours only.

	30-04-2004 19:59									#15
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Play Dom's NTTC style and then you do not have to sweat it.

	30-04-2004 20:01									#16
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I cannot understand why I have to be blamed for something that I didn't do.

And I cannot understand the exploits too, if I sell sources in 20 turns in exchange of 20 gold per turn and the other Civ is smashed, I loose the money too.

	30-04-2004 20:48									#17
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THe exploit was when the player would trade, say, 5 GPT, and in exchange would receive 100 gold, and five turns later the other civ is destroyed. You received 100 gold, while the other civ only received 25 out of 100 because you weren't able to pay all of the turns. Hence, you would get a reputation hit.

	01-05-2004 01:31									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Kramsib I cannot understand why I have to be blamed for something that I didn't do. And I cannot understand the exploits too, if I sell sources in 20 turns in exchange of 20 gold per turn and the other Civ is smashed, I loose the money too.

Not hard to understand. You have failed to deliver and they are mad, just like any child or gangster. They do not want to understand why you failed, only that you did. The routes were cut off, too bad, its your defaulting.

The gpt was required to prevent abuse, but makes sense anyway. They cannot pay, so where would the money come from?

You want to be more circumspect about making deals with civs that are not long for the world.

	01-05-2004 05:58									#19
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You can say whatever you want, but I still think that it is unfair and it has to be changed.

As far as you say about being more circumspect, that is very difficult becouse sometimes civ are very surprising, in my last game, Arabians (the second Civ in power) killed Mongols (I have trade with them, and they were quite strong) in only a few turns, there was nothing I could do, nor I couldn't predict such a result.

I agree having a reputation hit if destroying a Civ, I cut trade, but not becouse another civ cuts my trade.

And I am not sure that receiving 100 gold in exchange a frustated 5 gold per turn is a real exploit.

1º. A small civ who is near to its end should be intelligent enough to manage their sources correctly. I doubt such a civ should lend money. There is something to do with AI code.

2º. The same happens in real life, if your debtor dies and nobody receives the rights, you debt is over and you are free. It is not an exploit, it is real life.

	02-05-2004 17:36									#20
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* MrWhereItsAt shrugs

Creditors end up losing out all the time in the real world - companies go bankrupt... Even countries do. It's the risk you take.

	03-05-2004 02:58									#21
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Slight difference between a rep hit and being out of pocket...!!!

	03-05-2004 10:20									#22
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The current system does not differentiate who is to blame for the severed trade link. It's perfectly reasonable for you to take a rep hit if for example, you are at war and your enemy cuts your trade route or pillages a traded resource - one of the tactics of war. Solution - it is within your control, so prevent it. On the other hand, if your trading partner has his trade route severed or is annihilated, there is no reason you should take a rep hit since realistically there is little you can do to prevent it and it's not your fault.

I wouldn't think that would be so difficult to code, would it? (spoken like a true ignoramus about all things technical).

	03-05-2004 14:46									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Aqualung71 The current system does not differentiate who is to blame for the severed trade link. It's perfectly reasonable for you to take a rep hit if for example, you are at war and your enemy cuts your trade route or pillages a traded resource - one of the tactics of war. Solution - it is within your control, so prevent it. On the other hand, if your trading partner has his trade route severed or is annihilated, there is no reason you should take a rep hit since realistically there is little you can do to prevent it and it's not your fault.

I totally agree with you

	04-05-2004 01:52									#24
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Currently, the only way around this is to send troops over and physically block the war that is threatening to destroy your trading partner.

I've done it. I've also failed by being just a couple of turns too late.

...

I'm not 100% sure of this, but I think the rep hit might be minor for straight per turn for per turn deals, such as a luxury for gpt.

Anyway, it would be nice if the game could either assign blame to the civ whose trade connection was cut, or assign no blame at all. It would also be nice to have the deal remain in effect, such that if the civ that loses the trade connection regains it in a turn or two, the deal is reinstated and runs to completion.

-Arrian

	04-05-2004 04:50									#25
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The other thing that gets at me is, the rep hit is -PERMANENT-.
Something that happened -3000 years ago-, was NOT my fault, and was minor - maybe only the loss of a single gpt, for the last 5 turns - should NOT hamper my trades for all time.
All we ask, is for this system not to be so ruthlessly draconian

	04-05-2004 07:29									#26
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I didn't think the rep hit was permanent, but it certainly takes a long time to heal. And if the hit is well into the game, as it usually is, then you'd be lucky to ever get your reputation back within any useful timeframe.

	04-05-2004 23:27									#27
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quote: Originally posted by Kramsib You can say whatever you want, but I still think that it is unfair and it has to be changed. As far as you say about being more circumspect, that is very difficult becouse sometimes civ are very surprising, in my last game, Arabians (the second Civ in power) killed Mongols (I have trade with them, and they were quite strong) in only a few turns, there was nothing I could do, nor I couldn't predict such a result. I agree having a reputation hit if destroying a Civ, I cut trade, but not becouse another civ cuts my trade. And I am not sure that receiving 100 gold in exchange a frustated 5 gold per turn is a real exploit. 1º. A small civ who is near to its end should be intelligent enough to manage their sources correctly. I doubt such a civ should lend money. There is something to do with AI code. 2º. The same happens in real life, if your debtor dies and nobody receives the rights, you debt is over and you are free. It is not an exploit, it is real life.

You are correct. This is wrong.

If they want to prevent some sort of Nostradamus like exploit (somehow knowing that a civ is about to be crushed), then make the AI not make such trades when it is about to be smashed.

Unless the civ has 1 or 2 cities left and is so weak that every turn he loses a city, you have NO way of knowing that the deal wont last 20 turns (especially when ai civs declare war and peace against each other sometimes on and off on and off)...

Defending this rule by saying it prevents an exploit is very strange I think, given that the "exlpoit" itself requires some level of prophetic gifts so to speak.

	19-04-2005 17:17									#28
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The rep hit seems to last forever. In a game I just played (Emperor level) I wanted to assure a particular AI support to prevent diplomatic defeat. Although I was on good terms (polite) with that civ and in a mutual protection pact, it wouldn't accept anything from me on a per-turn basis. Its argument was along the lines of "We remember what you did to the Americans", which was a long, long time ago. Like 50 turns or more and I didn't even remember breaking any deal. Unless accepting the "I urge you to remove your troops" request and then attacking anyway counts. In that case it would act as a unilateral ROP without the movement bonus.

The funny thing was that the friendly AI wouldn't even accept free gold per turn as a gift!!!! Fortunately I was in time to raze the city with the UN in it. When or how often are these elections anyway? How can you be assured of an AIs vote?

Other questions: does it count against your reputation when you accept a peace deal when still in alliance against it with another civ? Is it bad for your reputation to try to extort stuff from the AI? (They do it all the time...)

I know this is an old thread, but I hope some can comment on questions of a relatively new player.

	19-04-2005 20:54									#29
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Rep hits aren't permenant. It only lasts until the end of that game. The AI won't remember this when you start you next game like a human would.

quote: Originally posted by Aqualung71 I didn't think the rep hit was permanent, but it certainly takes a long time to heal. And if the hit is well into the game, as it usually is, then you'd be lucky to ever get your reputation back within any useful timeframe.

	20-04-2005 08:05									#30
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quote: Originally posted by bongo Examples: Be careful with early naval trade. As the tradelanes only can follow the coast, one barb galley is enough to interrupt it. After astronomy life becomes easier, but cultural borders of enemies will still block trade.

Really!? That explains a lot! Barbarians breaking trade routes just by being there! I guess I won't be doing any more overseas trade in my games until astronomy from now on.

I really hope they overhaul the whole trading system in Civ 4. The way trade deals can be cancelled when it's not your fault and without your knowledge is very annoying.

quote: Originally posted by joncnunn Rep hits aren't permenant. It only lasts until the end of that game. The AI won't remember this when you start you next game like a human would.

Smart ass.

Don't give the designers any strange ideas.