30-04-2004 19:36									#121
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quote: Originally posted by Park Avenue Do you really want to legitimise deviant forms of human behaviour by saying "well, other animals do it"?

Wow, you're good at selective reading. You managed to miss that it wasn't claiming "being gay is OK because it's natural", but rather a refutation of the claim "being gay is bad because it's unnatural".

	30-04-2004 19:37									#122
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Don't you tempt me, Spiff...

	30-04-2004 19:40									#123
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quote: Originally posted by Park Avenue Most murderers, rapists and paedophiles (a sexual orientation, like homosexuality) will probably tell you thy felt compelled or forced to do what they did. So are their acts not wrong either?

Desiring to murder someone isn't a crime. Acting on that desire is a crime, not because it is natural or unnatural, but because it violates another's rights.

	30-04-2004 21:30									#124
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Didn't chose my sexual orientation, near as I can recall.

	30-04-2004 21:32									#125
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Sexual orientation only becomes a choice if you "choose" to be gay. Straight people are normal, thus it wasn't a choice.

Understand?

	01-05-2004 08:10									#126
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quote: since heterosexuality and homosexuality are both sexual orientations, one cannot be a choice and the other not -- if you insist that homosexuality is a choice, then heterosexuality must be a choice as well.

Conveniently neglects my argument.

You don't get to choose the attractions.

Whether you act on the attractions or not is an entirely different matter.

quote: So tell us your story -- what day did you wake up one morning and decided that you would choose to be a flamboyant straight person??

I've always felt attracted to women, but I have yet to act on those feelings to their fullest extent.

	01-05-2004 08:53									#127
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quote: Didn't chose my sexual orientation, near as I can recall.

Ya, it deosn't really make sense psychologically htta someone would choose what turns them on. That's not really a conscious choice.

	01-05-2004 09:14									#128
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quote: Originally posted by SlowwHand MrFun. Before you dismiss me as being insulting, you might need to realize the full ramifications of my point. Man is the only species with advanced reasoning abilities; the ability to make decisions, to choose. If other animals are known to exhibit seeming homosexual behavior, does that not indicate that it's not a choice, but rather a mindset with which one is born ? ********************************** Yeah, yeah. ****ing redneck Texan hicks. I'm going to stop making points in your damned behalf.

You misread my post -- I was not insulted by your original post with your point.

	01-05-2004 09:25									#129
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Conveniently neglects my argument. You don't get to choose the attractions. Whether you act on the attractions or not is an entirely different matter. I've always felt attracted to women, but I have yet to act on those feelings to their fullest extent.

It seems that you're being belligerent in ignoring my point that even with the choice to act, it's the person's right to conscience.

Theological laws in United States to deny a person's right to conscience is unconstitutional.

	01-05-2004 09:28									#130
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quote: Originally posted by Park Avenue Caligastia Most murderers, rapists and paedophiles (a sexual orientation, like homosexuality) will probably tell you thy felt compelled or forced to do what they did. So are their acts not wrong either?

I really get tired of this blatant fallicious argument in lumping homosexuals in the same group with criminals when homosexuals.


I also get tired of the dehumanizing, degrading, obsessive, reductionist focus on the sex act that is only a part of an intimate, loving relationship between two people.

	01-05-2004 09:39									#131
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well those crimes are wrong because it involves unwilling partners.

and in pedophilia, its still wrong because it involves partner that is unable to make that kind of decision.*

so homosexuality isnt in the same league.

	01-05-2004 09:40									#132
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The problem is that we should not even be discussing pedophilia at all since it's not related to the issues concerning sexual orientation.

	01-05-2004 09:47									#133
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I think the argument can be made that an uncontrollable attraction to children is similar to an uncontrollable attraction to members of one's own gender...

Last edited by Drake Tungsten on 01-05-2004 at 10:03

	01-05-2004 09:48									#134
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Id hit drake . . . with a club.

	01-05-2004 09:49									#135
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Gays cannot control themselves?

	01-05-2004 09:49									#136
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Why? I didn't say the sexual acts themselves could be equated, but merely the attractions.

quote: Gays cannot control themselves?

You can control who you are attracted to? I thought the whole point of the "we're born that way" argument was to show that gays can't control who they are attracted to...

	01-05-2004 09:50									#137
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Andnyou sould be diferer why?>

	01-05-2004 09:51									#138
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But the analogy with pedophilia is wrong, because it obsessively uses the reductionist focus on the sex act, thus reducing gay relationships between people to the same level of animals.

	01-05-2004 09:53									#139
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quote: But the analogy with pedophilia is wrong, because it obsessively uses the reductionist focus on the sex act, thus reducing gay relationships between people to the same level of animals.

Why do you think it focuses solely on the sex act? I'm sure some pedophiles actually desire some sort of relationship with the children they are attracted to (just look at Michael Jackson), but are denied such a relationship because the partner they seek is incapable of engaging in one.

	01-05-2004 09:55									#140
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head hurts from talking with Drake . . . . . .

	01-05-2004 09:57									#141
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My work here is done...

	01-05-2004 09:58									#142
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Your work was done when you first began trying to use pedophilia as a legitimate parallel with gays.

	01-05-2004 10:02									#143
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Pedophilia is not a legitimate parallel with homosexuality, but there are certainly areas where analogies can be drawn between the two, especially in the realm of "I'm born that way" arguments...

	01-05-2004 10:31									#144
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten I think the argument can be made that an uncontrollable attraction to children is similar to an uncontrollable attraction to members of one's own gender...

Or an uncontrollable attraction to the opposite gender?

	01-05-2004 10:36									#145
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quote: Originally posted by Park Avenue paedophiles (a sexual orientation, like homosexuality)

Cite evidence for this assertion, please. Because, I promise you, mental health and sex experts categorically disagree with this.

	01-05-2004 10:37									#146
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten Pedophilia is not a legitimate parallel with homosexuality, but there are certainly areas where analogies can be drawn between the two, especially in the realm of "I'm born that way" arguments...

As Boris already alluded to, use heterosexual relationships as a parallel to homosexual relationships if you want to discuss "uncontrollable attraction."

	01-05-2004 10:49									#147
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten Why? I didn't say the sexual acts themselves could be equated, but merely the attractions. quote: Gays cannot control themselves? You can control who you are attracted to? I thought the whole point of the "we're born that way" argument was to show that gays can't control who they are attracted to...

As long as we are talking about attraction exclusively from sex acts, then yes, we can talk about uncontrollable attraction.

But it sounded like you were referring to uncontrollable attraction in that we cannot control our actions as a result of what type of people we're attracted to.

	01-05-2004 10:53									#148
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quote: Theological laws in United States to deny a person's right to conscience is unconstitutional.

Right to conscience?

That's a bizarre application.

How is the desire to **** have anything to do with conscience?

	01-05-2004 10:55									#149
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Well it can be. If you can **** a random chick but shes right royally drunk then your conscience (con science? science of conning?) kicks in and stops you from taking advantage of her. You desired to get laid but your conscience denied you.

	01-05-2004 11:24									#150
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So how then are 'theological laws' preventing the right to conscience?