29-04-2004 22:26									#31
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Choice audio clip from the 60 minutes piece on this:

http://s95005245.onlinehome.us/Iraq_prison.mp3


If you want to see the whole thing you can download it here. (46mb)

	30-04-2004 01:50									#32
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Wow, I didn't expect to kill the thead by posting that.

	30-04-2004 02:53									#33
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quote: No guidance The station spoke to one of the six soldiers charged, Sergeant Chip Frederick - a reservist whose full-time job is as a prison officer in the US state of Virginia. Sgt Frederick said he and his fellow reservists had never been told how to deal with prisoners, or what lines should not be crossed. "We had no training whatsoever," he said. "I kept asking my chain of command for certain things... like rules and regulations. And it just wasn't happening," he said. He said he never saw a copy of the Geneva Conventions - which govern the treatment of prisoners - until after he was charged.

...so I guess that's normal prison treatment in Virginia?

	30-04-2004 03:02									#34
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat I'll enlighten those who don't already know it that you're one. Enemy combatants who are actively resisting us are *******s, and get exactly what they deserve, but lawful combatant prisoners in our custody deserve treatment in strict compliace with the Geneva Convention and other applicable treaties and standards of treatment. Unlawful combatant prisoners deserve the minimum standard of treatment required under applicable law until their cases are disposed of according to the UCMJ. Those guards, if proven guilty, should receive the maximum sentences for each offence convicted, and any senior NCO's and officers above them responsible for conditions at that facility should also be severely punished.

Are the soldiers waging an illegal war unlawful combatants?

	30-04-2004 03:05									#35
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quote: My above post wasn't exactly a prediction of your response in this particular case, but more an allusion to your usual posting style.

I thought it was ******* funny.

	30-04-2004 03:12									#36
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Not trained in Geneva Conventions? That has got to be the worst excuse ever for what happened..
.. I guess he will be taught now how his sh1t will be pushed in. They don't need to take any theory classes on it 'give up the mud' will be simple and clear enough command for this numbnuts, and if not, they will learn it the hard way, resisting only makes it hurt more.

Anyway there are positive sides to this as well. Like that the US military does seek after cases like these and punish these criminals. Also that the US media is not hiding anything when it comes to cases like this, but goes and raises public disgust.

Overkills like these always do happen even with the best of us, but those who actively seek and punish these traitors and has control over them are the ones who are the good folks.

	30-04-2004 04:01									#37
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Hey, I think it's a great defence!

"I was sick the day they taught us that killing was wrong in school so you can't punish me for gunning down half a dozen humans and a cat while robbing a liquor-store!"

	30-04-2004 04:31									#38
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I wonder what kind of questions he sent to be solved that never came back. 'OK can I NOW punch the prisoners pretty please? What about on fridays?'.

Besides it's BS what he's saying. Every soldiers is taught the Geneva Convetions when they start in the army. Maybe not in the most words, but the basic rules are set out to every soldier. If he honestly is too stupid to realize you can not treat prisoners like they did, then the people should be shot so they won't pollute the gene pool anymore.

	30-04-2004 04:34									#39
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quote: Originally posted by Oncle Boris Are the soldiers waging an illegal war unlawful combatants?

Even if there was an illegal war, that's not relevant to the definition of unlawful combatant status.

	30-04-2004 04:35									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon I thought it was ******* funny.

I was getting lonely. I thought I was the only other ******* online until I saw your post.

	30-04-2004 04:42									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Pekka Besides it's BS what he's saying. Every soldiers is taught the Geneva Convetions when they start in the army. Maybe not in the most words, but the basic rules are set out to every soldier. If he honestly is too stupid to realize you can not treat prisoners like they did, then the people should be shot so they won't pollute the gene pool anymore.

If you watched the 60 minutes show... you would of seen them say that the military investigation confirmed that they had not been trained in the geneva convention because they where reservists and not fully trained soldiers.

But personally, I find the encouragement and praise that he apparently got from military intelligence and the integrators more concerning... or the fact that they apparently had 5 'untrained' soldiers looking after 900 prisoners!

And speaking of the integrators, I'd be curious to know who the 'civilians' that are doing it are.

	30-04-2004 04:50									#42
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what do you mean not fully trained? Anyone with a rank is fully trained, if it's not a private. Right?
Plus how can you be qualified to be a soldier without having to listen through the rules at least once, be at sleep or what ever, but still you have to be there at least once? This sounds extremely weird.

Anyway, heard of it or not, common sense rules do apply so they shouldn't get any cover from that excuse.

What are these reservists? I know that US has many types of different reservists, but they have gone through boot camp, yes? If not, then what the hell are they been deployed for?

	30-04-2004 04:55									#43
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quote: Originally posted by Pekka what do you mean not fully trained?

"part time soldiers who did not get the kind of specialized prisoner of war training given to regular army members" acording to the news piece.

	30-04-2004 05:03									#44
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why are part time soldiers deployed there then? What the hell is a part time soldier?

	30-04-2004 07:35									#45
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quote: Originally posted by General Ludd "part time soldiers who did not get the kind of specialized prisoner of war training given to regular army members" acording to the news piece.

The news piece is wrong. We have gotten briefings such as this many times and we aren't even a unit that would be expected to deal with POWs. One could question if they had been trained in proper techniques or not, but there is no question that somewhere from the time they enlisted to the time they got there they were fully aware that you can't to crap like that.

	30-04-2004 08:14									#46
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quote: Originally posted by General Ludd But atleast we got rid of that torturer saddam...

How often did you see Saddam's troops investigated for mistreatment of prisoners?

	30-04-2004 08:24									#47
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat Even if there was an illegal war, that's not relevant to the definition of unlawful combatant status.

So what's an extrajudiciary warrior according to the convention? How could someone be outside of both civil and warfare laws?

	30-04-2004 08:27									#48
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quote: Originally posted by Kucinich How often did you see Saddam's troops investigated for mistreatment of prisoners?

shh. He thinks he is funny. Play along and laugh

	30-04-2004 08:49									#49
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Alexander's Drongo,

This is definite proof that all American soldiers mistreat Iraqi prisoners.

	30-04-2004 17:41									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Kucinich How often did you see Saddam's troops investigated for mistreatment of prisoners?

I thought that was the intention of the war... or was that last week?

But it seems the soldiers there don't care about saddam's torture - apparently they're just eager to set up shop and do the same damn things.

	30-04-2004 17:45									#51
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Good. I will be happy if these bastards get charged.

About 100,000 volts across the gonads should do it - or across the nipples in the case of Brigadier General Janice Krapinsky (or whatever the 8itch is called).

EDIT:

Maybe this isn't such a hot idea. I am reliably informed that people actually pay money for this sort of thing.

	30-04-2004 18:08									#52
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They should put these guys in an Iraqi prison and hire Saddam's former guards.

	30-04-2004 18:09									#53
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quote: Originally posted by Chemical Ollie They should put these guys in an Iraqi prison and hire Saddam's former guards.

They can all take turns being guards and prisoners.

	30-04-2004 18:17									#54
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Every professional soldier knows the rules. If found guilty they will serve time (and deservedly so). In my experience the kind of people who perpetrate such acts are more common in the 'week-end warrior' type units but they are unfortunately found in every unit. Sadly, the entire Canadian Airborne Regiment was disbanded over an incident like this involving one or two prisoners. An ignoble end to a great regiment.

	30-04-2004 19:19									#55
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quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker Alexander's Drongo, This is definite proof that all American soldiers mistreat Iraqi prisoners.

Drongo? That's an Australian term.

I never said all US soldiers behave like this.

	30-04-2004 19:29									#56
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quote: Originally posted by General Ludd I thought that was the intention of the war... or was that last week?

By his own forces, DUH.

quote: But it seems the soldiers there don't care about saddam's torture - apparently they're just eager to set up shop and do the same damn things.

Yup, all the American soldiers are like this. Every single one. Every American is out for Iraqi blood. Which is why these soldiers are being court-martialed.

	30-04-2004 19:57									#57
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This is to be expected when women are put in a position of authority...

	30-04-2004 20:18									#58
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quote: Originally posted by Chemical Ollie They should put these guys in an Iraqi prison and hire Saddam's former guards.

Leavenworth isn't exactly fun.

	30-04-2004 20:26									#59
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quote: Originally posted by Oncle Boris So what's an extrajudiciary warrior according to the convention? How could someone be outside of both civil and warfare laws?

The question of whether a war/conflict/whatever is itself "legal" is completely distinct from the conduct of fighters in that war.

One is a political question based on international law, the other has been farely well defined for a long time, and codified at least since the 1907 Hague Convention.

Lawful combatants generally have to do all of the following:

Be part of an organized force with a chain of command;

Carry arms openly;

Wear some form of distinguishing markings identifiable at a distance;

Generally adhere to the laws and customs of war;

There is some wiggle room on the organizational and identifying markings requirement to allow for spontaneous local defense on the approach of invading forces (but not a year after the fact).

Fighters are lawful combatants if they adhere to those standards and are either nationals of a party to the conflict, or are directly a part of an organized force of a party to the conflict.

Fighters who do not adhere to those standards are unlawful combatants. In either situation, the legality or lack thereof of the conflict itself is irrelevant.

	30-04-2004 20:33									#60
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Those who resisted German occupation in WWII have been afforded universal respect.