 |
| |
|
| |
|
|
Koyaanisqatsi
|
 |
of Maine paupers.
May 1999
time: 00:35
|
|
Hm. It appears his complaint was a bit more than not having been given the Geneva convention rules:
quote:
HAGERSTOWN, Md. - A soldier facing a court-martial for his role in the alleged abuse of Iraqi war prisoners says commanders ignored his requests to set out rules for treating POWs and scolded him for questioning the inmates’ harsh treatment.
Army Reserves Staff Sgt. Ivan “Chip” Frederick wrote that Abu Ghraib prison near Baghdad lacked the humane standards of the Virginia state prison where he worked in civilian life, according to a journal he started after military investigators first questioned him in January.
The Iraqi prisoners were sometimes confined naked for three consecutive days without toilets in damp, unventilated cells with floors 3 feet by 3 feet, Frederick wrote in materials obtained Thursday by The Associated Press.
“When I brought this up with the acting BN (battalion) commander, he stated, ’I don’t care if he has to sleep standing up.’ That’s when he told my company commander that he was the BN commander and for me to do as he says,” Frederick wrote.
The writings were supplied by Frederick’s uncle, William Lawson, who said Frederick wanted to document what was happening to him. Lawson and Martha Frederick, the sergeant’s wife, said Frederick was being made a scapegoat for commanders who gave him no guidance on managing hundreds of POWs with just a handful of ill-trained, poorly equipped troops.
Lt. Cmdr. Nicholas Balice, spokesman for the Central Command, which is in charge of U.S. forces in the Persian Gulf, said he couldn’t comment on Frederick’s writings, but that the allegations against him were appropriately investigated.
6 facing charges
Frederick is one of six members of the 800th Military Police Brigade facing courts-martial for allegedly humiliating prisoners at Abu Ghraib. Charges include dereliction of duty, cruelty and maltreatment, assault and indecent acts with another person.
CBS’s “60 Minutes II” broadcast pictures of the alleged abuse and an interview with Frederick on Wednesday. Some of the soldiers were smiling in the photographs obtained by CBS, which showed naked prisoners stacked in a human pyramid and being forced to simulate sex acts.
Lawson, of Newburg, W.Va., said his nephew was being portrayed “as a monster.”
“He’s just the guy they put in charge of the prison,” he said.
Martha Frederick, of Buckingham, Va., said her husband, in Iraq since April 2003, told her his unit wasn’t given proper training and equipment.
“I feel like things are being covered up. What has come to light has fallen on the burden of my husband,” she said.
Seventeen members of the 372nd Military Police Company were temporarily suspended from their posts after the investigation at the prison, Col. Jill Morgenthaler, a military spokesman in Baghdad, told The (Baltimore) Sun.
Military officials said Frederick, 37, is among the 14 of 17 people under investigation from the unit of the 800th based in Cresaptown, in western Maryland.
The Sun’s Friday editions identified two other soldiers facing court-martial. The newspaper cited unidentified Army officials in naming Sgt. Javal S. Davis, 26. His wife, who also spoke to the newspaper, defended her husband.
“We really don’t know how those prisoners are behaving,” said Zeenithia Davis, who is in the Navy in Mississippi. “There’s a line between heinous war crimes and maintaining discipline.”
Mother recognizes daughter
A Sun reporter on Thursday showed a photo of one of the nude prisoner scenes to Terrie England, who recognized her daughter, reservist Lynndie R. England, 21, standing in the foreground with her boyfriend.
“Oh, my God,” she told the newspaper from the stoop in front of her Fort Ashby, W.Va., trailer home. “I can’t get over this.”
The alleged abuses of prisoners were “stupid, kid things — pranks,” Terrie England said. “And what the (Iraqis) do to our men and women are just? The rules of the Geneva Convention, does that apply to everybody or just us?”
Her family said Lynndie England is detained on a U.S. base, but declined to say where.
Army officials said the investigation began in January when an American soldier reported the abuse and turned over evidence that included photographs. In addition to the criminal charges, the military has recommended disciplinary action against seven U.S. officers who helped run the prison, including Brig. Gen. Janis Karpinski, commander of the 800th Brigade.
Frederick’s civilian lawyer, Washington-based Gary Myers, said he has urged the commanding general in Iraq to treat the case as an administrative matter, like those of the seven officers.
“I can assure you Chip Frederick had no idea how to humiliate an Arab until he met up” with higher-ranking people who told him how, Myers said.
Myers said Frederick has had his Article 32 hearing, the military equivalent of a grand jury proceeding. Myers said he will next request a change of venue because “you can’t try a case of this magnitude in a hostile war zone environment.”
In civilian life, Frederick has been a correctional officer for six years at the Buckingham Correctional Center in Dillwyn, Va., his wife and a state agency spokesman said.
He wrote that he questioned the inmates’ treatment and asked for standard operating procedures when his unit relieved the 72nd Military Police Company at the prison last fall. His requests were ignored until Jan. 19, five days after his first visit from investigators, when he found the Geneva Convention rules for handling prisoners of war on the Internet, Frederick wrote.
|
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Arrian
|
 |
Kneel before Grog!
Jul 2001
time: 00:35
|
|
quote:
Mother recognizes daughter
A Sun reporter on Thursday showed a photo of one of the nude prisoner scenes to Terrie England, who recognized her daughter, reservist Lynndie R. England, 21, standing in the foreground with her boyfriend.
“Oh, my God,” she told the newspaper from the stoop in front of her Fort Ashby, W.Va., trailer home. “I can’t get over this.”
The alleged abuses of prisoners were “stupid, kid things — pranks,” Terrie England said. “And what the (Iraqis) do to our men and women are just? The rules of the Geneva Convention, does that apply to everybody or just us?”
Her family said Lynndie England is detained on a U.S. base, but declined to say where. |
* Arrian sincerely hopes these people are not distant relations
|
|
| |
|
|
|
MOBIUS
|
 |
Prifysgol Caerdydd
Dec 1999
time: 15:35
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat
Apparently, there are some serious problems at least in that prison. It's still pretty "odd and isolated" when you consider the sheer number of prisoners and allied soldiers involved. Besides, didn't your kinder and gentler soldiers have a few problems in their much friendlier and safer area down south, where everyone loves the Brits due to their great skills in peacekeeping?  |
True and not everyone should be tarred with the same brush, but when the Brig-Gen is facing censure and you have at least 17 people involved it is hardly isolated.
Yes, there was one problem with the UK forces but it was nothing compared to this - and the Colonel that got falsely accused by the cry-baby US Major was totally exonerated.
quote:
Don't insult animals. |
Sorry. My bad.
quote:
Apparently, that's their current whining in anticipation of court martials. Have you got any evidence of similar conduct at Gitmo, or are you just making it up yourself. |
There is plenty of anecdotal evidence of more extreme conduct, and there is plenty of actual filmed proof of what could be determined as human rights abuses. I guess it rather depends on your opinions...
quote:
Apparently, you are literacy challenged, or you just like to grossly misquote other posts to set up your pet strawmen. Where did I say that these prisoners (a) deserved it, or (b) that what the guards did was acceptable, or that (c) these prisoners should be maltreated? |
You said "Enemy combatants who are actively resisting us are *******s, and get exactly what they deserve"
You drew the distinction between 'lawful' and 'unlawful' combatants. IIRC your stance over terrorist types is that they are unlawful, which is a similar stance to the US govt - which is why they treat the inmates at Gitmo the way they do.
It is therefore reasonable to suppose that these non regular detainees in Abu Ghraib are 'unlawful' in your eyes and so "get exactly what they deserve..."
What does that mean in your eyes...?
quote:
I have no sympathy for armed enemies in the field. They can disarm and surrender, or they can die. Once they're prisoners, there are appropriate standards of treatment, which these disgraces to the uniform clearly violated. |
Well, clearly given that the soldiers complained of not getting guidance from their superiors they, er, treated them as they deemed appropriate...
quote:
Now why would you assume I think that? I think you need to get glasses, or maybe wipe off whatever it is on your monitor that's preventing you from reading, or whatever other problem you're having with reading and interpreting what people say. |
So if you captured an Iraqi that abused and burned those four contractors and one of those happened to be your friend, you wouldn't lay a finger on them if you thought you could get away with it?
|
|
| |
|
|
|
MichaeltheGreat
|
|
Apolyton Grand Executioner
|
 |
mooning the house that Ruth built.
Oct 1999
time: 21:35
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by MOBIUS
True and not everyone should be tarred with the same brush, but when the Brig-Gen is facing censure and you have at least 17 people involved it is hardly isolated.
|
17 out of over 100,000 in country, and probably around 200,000 who have been in country at one time or another in this war? My, we have an epidemic on our hands.  Yes, it is quite isolated.
quote:
and there is plenty of actual filmed proof of what could be determined as human rights abuses. I guess it rather depends on your opinions...
|
What I've seen suggests extremely strict control over prisoners considered extremely dangerous. Harsh and unpleasant in some instances, but not to the level of human rights abuses. Although I think we should have real tribunals under the UCMJ to sort out exactly who we have down there and what we should do with them.
quote:
You said "Enemy combatants who are actively resisting us are *******s, and get exactly what they deserve"
|
That's right - they surrender, agree to cease hostilities and disarm, or they die fighting or running. Once they've surrendered, etc., they are no longer actively resisting us.
quote:
You drew the distinction between 'lawful' and 'unlawful' combatants. IIRC your stance over terrorist types is that they are unlawful, which is a similar stance to the US govt - which is why they treat the inmates at Gitmo the way they do.
|
The Hague and Geneva conventions make that distinction too. Lawful combatants are entitled to much more significant protections than are unlawful combatants.
quote:
It is therefore reasonable to suppose that these non regular detainees in Abu Ghraib are 'unlawful' in your eyes and so "get exactly what they deserve..."
|
If they're unlawful combatants, as opposed to arrestees or lawful combatants, then they don't get the little care packages and such that regular prisoners get. They don't get tortured and systematically abused for entertainment, either. That doesn't mean they're coddled, but they're handled as necessary for security purposes and the safety of all persons, prisoners and guards.
quote:
What does that mean in your eyes...?
|
There's nothing about it. Some of those people may be subject to eventual execution, or very long prison terms, or whatever judicial punishment is determined for them, but there are still correct procedures for handling them, and those procedures do not involve gratuitous abuse.
quote:
So if you captured an Iraqi that abused and burned those four contractors and one of those happened to be your friend, you wouldn't lay a finger on them if you thought you could get away with it? |
First, there's a lot of discretion in capturing someone. Alexander's Horse can tell you a bit about Aussie (and everyone else's) view about infantry assaults. If the guy resists, or if I would have to fight my way into wherever he's holed up, the odds of a successful surrender are not good.
If he is taken prisoner, then he is handled according to the proper rules and regulations for handling prisoners.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
lightblue
|
|
L'Boro, UK
Oct 2001
time: 05:35
|
|
Seems like the Brits are at it as well. No link yet, but is in the Latest News ticker on http://news.bbc.co.uk amd was the elading story on the 10 o'Clock news.
|
|
| |
|
| |
|
|
|
Pax
|
|
1. The one small telling piece of evidence is the electrodes that were attached to the prisoner. That seems odd to have something like that just laying around does it not. Just having something like that in a prison would lead me to believe that electric shock torture is going on in Iraq. It's a smoking gun.
2. Furthermore, It does not take the Geneva convention to tell me or anyone else that electrocuting my genitals is cruel and unusual.
3. I don't see how anyone could believe that this event is isolated to a few people.
The soldiers involved in this recent event are animals. Human animals just like you and me capable of all kinds of evil. Just like you and me. We have pretenses that somehow human nature has changed in the western world when really we are capable of as many evils as any person or group from history that has been labeled bad.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Pax
|
|
It's more like the army colonel from the battle of algiers.
If the equipment was left there it would have either been destroyed or locked away. It would not be laying around a military establishment for no reason. It goes against the concept of military order to have unused equipment not stored away.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Alexander's Horse
|
 |
Panmunjon, hands up!
Jan 1970
time: 15:35
|
|
No - and now it looks like some Brits have been at it too!
quote:
Brits probe new prisoner abuse claims
May 1, 2004
Page Tools
Email to a friend Printer format
British military officials confirmed today they were investigating new allegations that their soldiers abused a prisoner in Iraq.
The report came as the Daily Mirror newspaper published photos of a hooded prisoner who was reportedly beaten and had teeth broken at the hands of British troops.
"All allegations are already under investigation," General Michael Jackson, chief of the General Staff, told a late night news conference.
"If proven, the perpetrators are not fit to wear the Queen's uniform. They have besmirched the good name of the army and its honour."
The Mirror said it was given the pictures by serving soldiers from the Queen's Lancashire Regiment, who were concerned that "rogue elements" in the army were undermining attempts to win support from the Iraqi people.
The newspaper quoted the unidentified soldiers as saying the unarmed captive had been threatened with execution during eight hours of abuse, and was left bleeding and vomiting. They said the captive was then driven away and dumped from the back of a moving vehicle, and it was not known whether he survived.
Advertisement
Advertisement
A spokesman for Prime Minister Tony Blair said he supported Jackson's statement.
"The prime minister agreed that allegations of this nature are treated most seriously, but they should not be taken as a reflection of the general behaviour of coalition forces and the work they are doing with the Iraqi people," Blair's office said.
Earlier today, the Ministry of Defence confirmed that military authorities were considering whether to prosecute eight soldiers for allegedly abusing prisoners in Iraq.
The case came to light a year ago, when The Sun newspaper reported that a soldier had a roll of film showing an Iraqi detainee bundled up in netting and suspended from a forklift truck. The Sun claimed the film also showed troops performing sex acts near captured Iraqis.
The ministry said the Royal Military Police's Special Investigations Branch had completed its investigation, and the army's prosecuting authority was deliberating whether to press charges.
None of the soldiers has been publicly identified.
"Where allegations are made, they will be investigated by the SIB and that's what every soldier who wears the British uniform knows," Blair's official spokesman said.
The British case was mentioned by Blair's spokesman at a morning press briefing, as journalists sought the government's reaction to alleged abuse of Iraqi prisoners of war by US soldiers.
"The US army spokesman has said this morning that he is appalled, that those responsible have let their fellow soldiers down, and those are views that we would associate the UK government with," said Blair's official spokesman, who briefed reporters on condition of anonymity.
"This is not representative of the 150,000 soldiers that are in Iraq," the spokesman said, adding that the coalition should not be judged on the alleged actions of a few.
The comments came after the American CBS network broadcast images of Iraqis stripped naked, hooded and being tormented by their captors.
AP
|
This kind of thing is very bad.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
MichaeltheGreat
|
|
Apolyton Grand Executioner
|
|
mooning the house that Ruth built.
Oct 1999
time: 21:35
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by Chemical Ollie
The brother who died in 'Nam? I guess it was before they sent him there. What was he suspected for? (Really none of my business, I'm just curious. If you don't want to share it, don't) |
He died years after 'Nam, but due to Agent Orange induced cancers. After his tour in 'Nam was up, he still had a year to go on his enlistment, so he was putting in time at Fort Ord. With about three months to go, he just decided to desert. The irony was that the Army was reducing forces at the time, and he could have just asked for an early discharge, since he'd already done a tour in 'Nam and had been decorated.
After a year or so on the run, he turned himself in, and ended up at Leavenworth, but they wanted nothing to do with prosecuting him under his circumstances and with his service record at that (very late) point in the war. He was there about six weeks before the decision went through all the bureaucratic channels to just release and discharge him.
|
|
| |
|
| |
All times are GMT. The time now is 05:35.
Apolyton Time is 00:35. |
top of page
|
| archivepost |
|
Forum Rules:
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
|
HTML code is ON
vB code is ON
Smilies are ON
[IMG] code is ON
|
|
|
|
|
|
30-04-2004 20:41
|