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Apolyton Civilization Forums : Powered by vBulletin version 2.0.3 Apolyton Civilization Forums > Miscellaneous > Archive > Off-Topic-Archive > 6 US Troops charged for maltreating Iraqi jail inmates
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Kropotkin is offline Kropotkin
Emperor
of Ålidhem
Mar 1999
time: 06:35
  Old Post 02-05-2004 23:41
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quote:
...he is expected to have some pro-iraqian bias.

Don't we all have a pro-iraqi bias? I mean, wasn't the war and then the ocupation started for the sake of the iraqi people?

Dis is offline Dis
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Las Vegas, Nevada
Feb 2000
time: 21:35
  Old Post 02-05-2004 23:51 Visit Dis's homepage!
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we all know that isn't true.

Pax is offline Pax
Chieftain

Feb 2003
time: 05:35
  Old Post 03-05-2004 03:17
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The fact is that sexual assault, rape and other abuses happen in and outside the U.S. military. It should be no surprise to anyone that soldiers who happen to be just as human as you me would be involved in these types of activities. It's also unrealistic to think that the leadership is any different given what we know about tailhook and cases of rape and humiliation at the air force academy and the citadel to name a few.

kolpo is offline kolpo
Warlord

Jan 2001
time: 05:35
  Old Post 03-05-2004 04:19
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"Lawful combatants generally have to do all of the following:

Be part of an organized force with a chain of command;

Carry arms openly;

Wear some form of distinguishing markings identifiable at a distance;

Generally adhere to the laws and customs of war;"

The WWII resistance would be considered unlawfull combatants based on your definition, they certainly where not so stupid to wear there arms openly.

Last edited by kolpo on 03-05-2004 at 04:52

Kropotkin is offline Kropotkin
Emperor
of Ålidhem
Mar 1999
time: 06:35
  Old Post 03-05-2004 13:41
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The unlawful combatant issue means **** in the context of this issue. It doesn't matter if the guys they maltreated where arrested because they killed and ate little school-girls. Any state or organisation that wishes to introduce and uphold the rule of law don't allow prison guards to act out their twisted desires on prisoners.

Alexander's Horse is offline Alexander's Horse
Deity
Panmunjon, hands up!
Jan 1970
time: 15:35
  Old Post 03-05-2004 18:48 Visit Alexander's Horse's homepage!
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A lot of it goes back to the demonising of Arabs in the media. These simpleton guards took it to heart and treated the prisoners as sub humans. We've seen that before. Where?

Chemical Ollie is offline Chemical Ollie
Prince
Bored of this board
Jan 2002
time: 06:35
  Old Post 03-05-2004 18:51
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quote:
We've seen that before. Where?


It would be a easier to make of list of the places where we haven't seen it. Humane treatment of POWs is a quite new invention.

Drake Tungsten is offline Drake Tungsten
Prince
Knee deep in alien womyn...
Oct 2001
time: 14:35
  Old Post 03-05-2004 19:02
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quote:
We've seen that before. Where?


Australia? Didn't they do this kind of **** in those concentration camps you guys set up for illegal immigrants?

DinoDoc is offline DinoDoc
Emperor
AECCP loves Democracy
Sep 1999
time: 23:35
  Old Post 03-05-2004 19:03
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I don't think they take pictures though.

Oerdin is offline Oerdin
King
of Internet Music.
Sep 2001
time: 21:35
  Old Post 03-05-2004 19:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Chemical Ollie
A "Sergeant Mikael" is quoted: - All Iraqis are liers. The only Iraqis I want to meet are the dead ones.


This is true. Alot of the infantry guys speak like this. Its a way for them to talk big and show their bravado, however, I doubt more then a handful actually mean it. They say things like "suck my dick", "eat ****", and a million other degrading, derogitory, or sexually explicite things to each other yet none of them actually expect to do those things. Such over statements are just talk.

Unfortunately, such talk opens them up to having their words deliberately or indeliberately misportrayed.

Alexander's Horse is offline Alexander's Horse
Deity
Panmunjon, hands up!
Jan 1970
time: 15:35
  Old Post 03-05-2004 19:13 Visit Alexander's Horse's homepage!
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So much for liberation - a bit like saving "gooks" and "slopeheads" from communism a few years ago.

General Ludd is offline General Ludd
Emperor
Minion of the Dominion
Aug 2001
time: 05:35
  Old Post 03-05-2004 19:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Oerdin


This is true. Alot of the infantry guys speak like this. Its a way for them to talk big and show their bravado, however, I doubt more then a handful actually mean it. They say things like "suck my dick", "eat ****", and a million other degrading, derogitory, or sexually explicite things to each other yet none of them actually expect to do those things. Such over statements are just talk.


They're talking **** and making bravado, but it's nothing to worry about? These guys have rifles, machines guns, and tanks at their disposal.

Case and point. Machismo.

DinoDoc is offline DinoDoc
Emperor
AECCP loves Democracy
Sep 1999
time: 23:35
  Old Post 03-05-2004 19:23
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quote:
Originally posted by General Ludd
Case and point. Machismo.
Don't you think he learned not to steal things.

General Ludd is offline General Ludd
Emperor
Minion of the Dominion
Aug 2001
time: 05:35
  Old Post 03-05-2004 19:27
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quote:
Originally posted by DinoDoc
Don't you think he learned not to steal things.


I think he learned that that's what he's going to have to do from now on.

I guess you're right, though. Pillaging is a good way to stop looting - if you destroy all the propety, there won't be anythign left to take.

DinoDoc is offline DinoDoc
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AECCP loves Democracy
Sep 1999
time: 23:35
  Old Post 03-05-2004 19:31
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quote:
Originally posted by General Ludd
I guess you're right, though. Pillaging is a good way to stop looting - if you destroy all the propety, there won't be anythign left to take.
Pillaging is when the conquering army takes stuff. Not when they punish thieves.

General Ludd is offline General Ludd
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Aug 2001
time: 05:35
  Old Post 03-05-2004 19:33
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quote:
Originally posted by DinoDoc
Pillaging is when the conquering army takes stuff. Not when they punish thieves.


I thought it was when they destroy stuff - you know, burning homes and salting the fields. Or crushing cars along with the 'looted' goods of their victims. What's the word I'm looking for, then?

DinoDoc is offline DinoDoc
Emperor
AECCP loves Democracy
Sep 1999
time: 23:35
  Old Post 03-05-2004 19:35
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raze

MichaeltheGreat is offline MichaeltheGreat
Apolyton Grand Executioner
mooning the house that Ruth built.
Oct 1999
time: 21:35
  Old Post 03-05-2004 20:24
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quote:
Originally posted by kolpo
"Lawful combatants generally have to do all of the following:

Be part of an organized force with a chain of command;

Carry arms openly;

Wear some form of distinguishing markings identifiable at a distance;

Generally adhere to the laws and customs of war;"

The WWII resistance would be considered unlawfull combatants based on your definition, they certainly where not so stupid to wear there arms openly.


That is correct, except that it isn't my definition, it's a close paraphrase (because I was too lazy to look up the exact language for about the twentieth time since this war began) of the standards in the Geneva Convention.

MichaeltheGreat is offline MichaeltheGreat
Apolyton Grand Executioner
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Oct 1999
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  Old Post 03-05-2004 20:27
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quote:
Originally posted by General Ludd


They're talking **** and making bravado, but it's nothing to worry about? These guys have rifles, machines guns, and tanks at their disposal.

Case and point. Machismo.


Perhaps we should kiss their asses and help them load, instead?

Or turn them over to a Sharia court, for amputation of their right hands?

MichaeltheGreat is offline MichaeltheGreat
Apolyton Grand Executioner
mooning the house that Ruth built.
Oct 1999
time: 21:35
  Old Post 03-05-2004 20:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Oerdin


This is true. Alot of the infantry guys speak like this. Its a way for them to talk big and show their bravado, however, I doubt more then a handful actually mean it. They say things like "suck my dick", "eat ****", and a million other degrading, derogitory, or sexually explicite things to each other yet none of them actually expect to do those things. Such over statements are just talk.

Unfortunately, such talk opens them up to having their words deliberately or indeliberately misportrayed.


Yep. It's also pretty essential that they do this, because it's a way of venting when they're stuck for a significant period of time in an environment that mixes unpredictable danger, frustration, discomfort, and prolonged boredom. If these guys weren't saying anything, you'd have a lot more cause to worry.

Kropotkin is offline Kropotkin
Emperor
of Ålidhem
Mar 1999
time: 06:35
  Old Post 03-05-2004 20:36
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On the other hand, is it to much to ask from a person you trust with loads of weapons, to be smart enough to keep shut when a journalist from another country than the US comes along?

General Ludd is offline General Ludd
Emperor
Minion of the Dominion
Aug 2001
time: 05:35
  Old Post 03-05-2004 20:40
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quote:
Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat


Perhaps we should kiss their asses and help them load, instead?


Well, that'd be better than just destroying everything involved.

What's wrong with looting? It's taking advantage of the situation to steal stuff, and in turn hurting the people's prosperity. How do we stop it? We destroy all the property!

Ramo is offline Ramo
King
Austin, Texas, USA
Oct 1999
time: 23:35
  Old Post 05-05-2004 01:10 Visit Ramo's homepage!
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Contractors implicated in prison abuse still on the job! Remove this text

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/05/04/i.../04CONT.html?hp

quote:
More than two months after a classified Army report found that two contract workers were implicated in the abuse of Iraqis at a prison outside Baghdad, the companies that employ them say that they have heard nothing from the Pentagon, and that they have not removed any employees from Iraq.


Well, it's a good thing that Dear Leader cares for the abuse not one bit.

In other news, apparantly Bremer cared about the abuse in Abu Ghraib not one bit, according to Turki, Iraq's first minister for human rights:

http://www.gulf-daily-news.com/Arti...e=80744&Sn=WORL
quote:
"In November I talked to Mr Bremer about human rights violations in general and in jails in particular. He listened but there was no answer. At the first meeting, I asked to be allowed to visit the security prisoners, but I failed," he said.

"I told him the news. He didn't take care about the information I gave him."

Kontiki is offline Kontiki
Settler
Canada
Aug 2001
time: 00:35
  Old Post 05-05-2004 01:24
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quote:
Originally posted by DinoDoc
I don't think they take pictures though.



This is another thing I don't get. Why is it that some genius always gets the bright idea of taking pictures/filming this sort of thing? Why don't you just call in al Jazeera and ask them to set up a live satellite feed?

Last edited by Kontiki on 05-05-2004 at 01:38

SlowwHand is offline SlowwHand
King
of The Cooler
Sep 1999
time: 23:35
  Old Post 05-05-2004 01:25 Visit SlowwHand's homepage!
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I've made a real effort to stay out of this bullshit thread, but I can't.

This staged stupidity was that, and that alone.
It was stupid, it wasn't abuse.
You want to talk to some former p.o.w. friends of mine, from both WW II and Vietnam; then you can talk abuse.

Ramo is offline Ramo
King
Austin, Texas, USA
Oct 1999
time: 23:35
  Old Post 05-05-2004 01:31 Visit Ramo's homepage!
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You don't consider rape abuse?

SlowwHand is offline SlowwHand
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Sep 1999
time: 23:35
  Old Post 05-05-2004 01:35 Visit SlowwHand's homepage!
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I consider you naive. Does that count ?

Ramo is offline Ramo
King
Austin, Texas, USA
Oct 1999
time: 23:35
  Old Post 05-05-2004 01:36 Visit Ramo's homepage!
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So you think that it's naive to consider rape as a form of abuse instead of "staged stupidity"?

DinoDoc is offline DinoDoc
Emperor
AECCP loves Democracy
Sep 1999
time: 23:35
  Old Post 05-05-2004 01:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Kontiki
Why don't you just call in al Jazeera and ask them to set up a live satellite feed?
Beats me. It'd save time.
quote:
You don't consider rape abuse?
Be more explicit. Ask him if breaking chemical lights and pouring the phosphoric liquid on detainees or sodomizing them with chemical lights crosses the line between abuse and staged stupidity.

SlowwHand is offline SlowwHand
King
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Sep 1999
time: 23:35
  Old Post 05-05-2004 01:46 Visit SlowwHand's homepage!
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Detainees were threatened with a loaded pistol
Cold water was poured on naked prisoners
Inmates were beaten with a broom handle and chair
Male detainees were threatened with rape
A prisoner was sodomised with a chemical light
Detainees were forced into various sexual positions to be photographed
Naked inmates were arranged in a pile and then jumped on
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3684381.stm








Oh goodness. I stand corrected.

 
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