02-05-2004 01:20									#121
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quote: Originally posted by Wezil I can agree with the CanCon as it applies to TV/video.....but what about music? Surely our music industry is mature enough (unlike TV/video) to survive on its own merits now? NYE?

That's a good question. Radio is kind of strange now. Talk is taking over, which should be 'local'. For stations that are still music, it isn't very hard at all to come up with CanCon that people want to listen to.

I think for radio it is more of a relic from a time when it was required to assure exposure for Canadians.

Do you know if there is any current controversy within the radio industry over it?

	02-05-2004 01:49									#122
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bill o'reilly = troll

	02-05-2004 01:52									#123
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I don't know of any controversy. My guess would be that is b/c there is plenty of CanCon music to be had, hence programming isn't really a problem.

Thirty years ago our music industry was in its infancy as well (much like our visual media now). I see the need in music thirty years ago but not now.

I'm tempted to put movies in the same category as well. I think what industry we have (separate from Hollywood North productions) is sad in it's content. I suspect if theatres had a 100% CanCon requirement we would simply stop going to the movies, rather than pay for crap. Of course there are exceptions in Canadian film but they are truly exceptions. I can spot the average Cdn flic in about 30 seconds and am usually bored 30 seconds later.

	02-05-2004 02:21									#124
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quote: I'd love to see you guys cope with a next door neighbour with 3 billion people. It would be really funny to watch you squeal like stuck pigs. That is the same scale, btw. 30 million - 300 million - 3 billion.

Why would I care, I'd watch what the 3 billion have to offer on TV. If it sucked, there would be an incentive for people in my country to develop some programming. But you didn't respond to my point, Hollywood was a private venture and you guys complain about it's dominance while also claiming private ventures can't create a sufficient entertainment industry in your country.

quote: Oh wait, you're already crying the blues about competing with China, and they are an ocean away and only 1 billion. Heh. My heart bleeds for you, darling.

I'm not crying about China, where did you get that bit of convenient speculation? Can you respond to what I said instead of telling me what I didn't say and don't even think?

	02-05-2004 02:45									#125
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Oh come on, Berz. That would be no fun at all.

	02-05-2004 06:32									#127
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quote: Yeah, even when the film industry that it creates is an economic boon to the country and the Lord of the Rings has generated more tourism publicity than the combined public and private efforts of all New Zealanders in the history of our country.

Yeah even when. Sorry, I guess unlike you I don't compromise my beliefs when there may be an economic benefit in one instance.

	02-05-2004 06:42									#128
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I agree; boycott Celine Dion!

	02-05-2004 06:43									#129
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Yeah even when. Sorry, I guess unlike you I don't compromise my beliefs when there may be an economic benefit in one instance.

Only because your beliefs all revolve around economic benefit in the first place.


I think his point was that they where arguing it to be a waste of money, though.

	02-05-2004 06:48									#130
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It may have only been part of their beliefs. The main belief was probably that the government shouldn't get involved in funding the arts because it isn't proper for the government to choose which art gets promoted.

	02-05-2004 07:02									#131
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui It may have only been part of their beliefs. The main belief was probably that the government shouldn't get involved in funding the arts because it isn't proper for the government to choose which art gets promoted.

I'm not going to argue about what the opinions of a bunch of compelte strangers may or may not be, but that's a pretty silly belief to hold.

First of all I need to point out that your implication of the government "choosing which art gets promoted" is wrong. It only chooses which art it promotes - it doesn't stop anyone from promoting other art, does it? (Well, yes, it often does. But outside of the typical censorship, i mean.) And where would the arts be without grants?

Oh, yes. I guess your idea of 'art' consists of glossy advertisements and mass-produced gimmickry. Which would explain why you would think that private buisnesses are the only entity suitable for "choosing which art gets promoted"

	02-05-2004 08:43									#132
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quote: Originally posted by General Ludd I'm not going to argue about what the opinions of a bunch of compelte strangers may or may not be, but that's a pretty silly belief to hold. First of all I need to point out that your implication of the government "choosing which art gets promoted" is wrong. It only chooses which art it promotes - it doesn't stop anyone from promoting other art, does it? (Well, yes, it often does. But outside of the typical censorship, i mean.) And where would the arts be without grants? Oh, yes. I guess your idea of 'art' consists of glossy advertisements and mass-produced gimmickry. Which would explain why you would think that private buisnesses are the only entity suitable for "choosing which art gets promoted"

you're a *ing total douchebag, man

	02-05-2004 09:41									#133
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quote: that's a pretty silly belief to hold

Why? Because you don't agree with it? Many people, including you, I'm sure have argued what areas the government should and should not get involved in.

quote: First of all I need to point out that your implication of the government "choosing which art gets promoted" is wrong. It only chooses which art it promotes

Duh... that's kinda obviously what I meant . It's government discrimination based on favored art.

quote: And where would the arts be without grants?

You mean it would have to be worth something to the people to survive? Wow... what a thought!

Furthermore, I oppose government subsidies to business and anyone who is would have to oppose government funding of the arts to be consistent. The government is funding a business - what, you don't think the artists sell their paintings or have exhibits where you have to pay?

quote: you're a *ing total douchebag, man

Indeed, Zylka, indeed .

	02-05-2004 11:01									#134
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quote: Originally posted by Berzerker Why would I care, I'd watch what the 3 billion have to offer on TV. If it sucked, there would be an incentive for people in my country to develop some programming. But you didn't respond to my point, Hollywood was a private venture and you guys complain about it's dominance while also claiming private ventures can't create a sufficient entertainment industry in your country.

NOOOOO there wouldn't be any incentive. We call it cultural steamrolling, a process which has always existed. However the law of markets are making it even harder to overcome it, especially since the ****tards in Washington and in the WTO want to make culture a PRODUCT.

EDIT: the problem with yanks - even the moderate ones - is mostly their completely idiot belief in the laws of market. This belief is due to your success - the moment you would stop being successfull, as Osweld pointed out, you would be weeping like any baby.

	02-05-2004 11:10									#135
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the problem with scientists - even the moderate ones - is mostly their completely idiot belief in the laws of science. This belief is due to your success - the moment you would stop being successfull, as Osweld pointed out, you would be weeping like any baby

	02-05-2004 15:55									#136
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quote: Originally posted by Frankychan Well....um......Ok ok, you got me there. CNN also uses leading questions, but they seem less biased than FauxNews.

Both a paragons of evenhandedness in comparison to interviewers from the BBC.

	02-05-2004 16:23									#137
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quote: Originally posted by St Leo quote: Originally posted by Whaleboy Gravity? Actually, gravity is the weakest of the four forces. Strong nuclear, weak nuclear, and electromagnetic all kick gravity's ass.

What a heavy burden for Gravity to bear.

	02-05-2004 16:24									#138
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai Gentlemen, our secret plan is working. First Drake, then another Yank and we'll soon have another couple of provinces.

Gentlemen, our secret plan is working! Once they have a couple more provinces a majority of Canadians will be republicans!

	02-05-2004 18:01									#139
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Why? Because you don't agree with it?

Because it's inconsistent. And paradoxal. You think that private buisnesses - who obviously have an introspective view - are more suited to making cultural decisions than governments are. Do you not see the reasons why a city would have an interest in funding an art gallery/museum, or why they would want to encourage local artists?

quote: Duh... that's kinda obviously what I meant . It's government discrimination based on favored art.

Discrimination is a negative, this is a postive. They aren't stoping works from being made, they are encouraging them to be made.

quote: You mean it would have to be worth something to the people to survive? Wow... what a thought!

Culture doesn't have monetary value.

	02-05-2004 18:10									#140
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quote: Well, if Japan has advanced to the point where it has computers...it seems kind of obvious that Canada would have TVs

Actually Japan houses the world's fastest computer. Faster than the 3 fastest US computers combined.

	02-05-2004 18:15									#141
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quote: Discrimination is a negative, this is a postive. They aren't stoping works from being made, they are encouraging them to be made.

No, discrimination is making a choice based on information. There's positive discrimination and negative discrimination.

If you're going to quibble about the use of the term, don't be a ****ing retard and get it right!.

	02-05-2004 18:17									#142
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quote: Originally posted by Oncle Boris NOOOOO there wouldn't be any incentive. We call it cultural steamrolling, a process which has always existed. However the law of markets are making it even harder to overcome it, especially since the ****tards in Washington and in the WTO want to make culture a PRODUCT.

The law of markets don't make it more difficult... it just removes government backing. There isn't any other system (without government funding) that would make it easier, either.

	02-05-2004 18:18									#143
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quote: Originally posted by Kucinich If you're going to quibble about the use of the term, don't be a ****ing retard and get it right!.

I'm not quibbling, I'm pointing out that funding something isn't discrimination.

	02-05-2004 18:22									#144
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Of course it is! Didn't you read my post?

	02-05-2004 18:30									#145
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quote: Originally posted by Kucinich Of course it is!

I think you're the one quibbling over words. Rather than listening to my point, you try to play semantics just for the sake of disagreeing with me.


Funding art is no more discrimination than funding science and military is. Or a buisness doing the same, or even paying it's employees. Paying someone to do somethign is not, to any reasonble person, discrimination.

	02-05-2004 18:31									#146
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Then, by your reasoning, subsidies to white people wouldn't be discrimination either.

	02-05-2004 18:37									#147
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quote: Originally posted by Kucinich Then, by your reasoning, subsidies to white people wouldn't be discrimination either.

If you want to talk rascism, start another thread. It's quite a bit different than anything we've been talking about here. Or if you want a comparison that works, feel free to use one of the ones I offered - military or scientific funding.

	02-05-2004 18:41									#148
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Military funding is obviously not intereference in the market, it's that the government actually has to buy the stuff. Same with, say, asphalt for roads.

Scientific funding is, but at least in its case it provides a direct economic benefit for the money.

	02-05-2004 18:51									#149
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quote: Originally posted by Kucinich Military funding is obviously not intereference in the market, it's that the government actually has to buy the stuff. Same with, say, asphalt for roads.

Just as the government needs to buy equipment, or has an interest in funding science, it also needs to promote culture. You do see the benefits of things like museums and art gallerys, don't you?

quote: Scientific funding is, but at least in its case it provides a direct economic benefit for the money.

This, by the way, is what I was arguing against Imran. He thinks that it is not justifiable regardless of the benfits that might result. (and specifically econmic benefits, as evident in the LoTR example that started this)

	02-05-2004 19:02									#150
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quote: Just as the government needs to buy equipment, or has an interest in funding science, it also needs to promote culture. You do see the benefits of things like museums and art gallerys, don't you?

1) There's a difference between needing to do something and having an interest in something. Having a military, for instance, is a vital part of the government's function. Art is not.

2) The government isn't funding all art, is it? And since (according to you) art can't survive, at least not much, without government funding, the government is choosing which art will be made and which won't. This is not in any way the proper domain of the government.