02-05-2004 00:29									#61
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A heartly welcome to all new EU members!!!


Let's see if I remember all of you: Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland, Czech Republic, Slovakia, Slovenia, Cyprus, Malta. Oh, and Hungary, of course. Living in peace with Austria, hopefully.

And the Dutch are Germans. And stay faithfully to the Spanish King. Or so.

Never mind, this is a happy day.

	02-05-2004 00:30									#62
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You do know that EU love is actually Russia hate in most of the new member nations? Right?

	02-05-2004 00:57									#63
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I dont think its that simple Tass. Even if that is the motive of "EU love" for some people, they have pretty good reason to hate/be afraid of Russia.

	02-05-2004 01:16									#64
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quote: We got sms-messages from all over the europe, this is what the united europe is all about. Being in constant touch with people on the same continent is no different from knowing people from the city nearby.

Isn't that special.

	02-05-2004 01:18									#65
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quote: Originally posted by Adalbertus And the Dutch are Germans. And stay faithfully to the Spanish King. Or so.

As it should be

j/k

	02-05-2004 01:18									#66
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quote: Originally posted by laurentius I dont think its that simple Tass. Even if that is the motive of "EU love" for some people, they have pretty good reason to hate/be afraid of Russia.

And that hate of Russia makes Russians afraid that theyre about to be wiped out, thus they slip into despotism.
Your hate is perpetuating that which you fear.

	02-05-2004 01:22									#67
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So?

Are you saying that East Europe hate of Russia (that maybe is related to the communist ocupattion ) is making Russia being a despotism? Becasue then I'll politely disagree. Russia being a despotism is nothing new - in fact she has never been a true democracy, regretabily

	02-05-2004 01:22									#68
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So how long does everyone think this pro-EU warm fuzzy feeling will last before it gets ugly?

Because it always does...

	02-05-2004 01:24									#69
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Perhaps, though, that is because Russia has always percieved itself as threatened.
As you may recal, some in Russia would like the communist era to return: Russia was powerful then, there was at least some food on the table....

You don't think that the EU driving up to Russian borders, but not even making conciliatory gestures to Russia and instead taking a hardline stance will make Russians feel secure? Economically, politically, or militarily?

	02-05-2004 01:24									#70
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I don't think it should get ugly... All new countries are being joining because they want, it's not a military conquest or something like that.

	02-05-2004 01:26									#71
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Russia just isnt ready to join for a long time Tass. We dont hate them, some ex-soviet satellites might, but we arent having a vendetta agaisnt the Russia in general. Russia doesnt share the values EU is built on. Russia lacks of freedom of speech, freedom to be/do whatever you want, positive freedom in general, basic human rights, even a little democracy, any attempt to create social and economical equality, transparent government, independent judical system etc etc. Once they improve, I'm all for them to join. Say, give it another 50 years.

	02-05-2004 01:30									#72
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quote: Originally posted by Comrade Tassadar Perhaps, though, that is because Russia has always percieved itself as threatened. As you may recal, some in Russia would like the communist era to return: Russia was powerful then, there was at least some food on the table.... You don't think that the EU driving up to Russian borders, but not even making conciliatory gestures to Russia and instead taking a hardline stance will make Russians feel secure? Economically, politically, or militarily?

Hardline stance? What hardline stance are you speaking about, Tass (can I call you Tass?)?

All countries have though to be threatened - many of them all his history. See Poland, for instance, who has been menaced, conquered, splitted and conquered again so many times in the last centuries.

	02-05-2004 02:31									#73
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Europe, who needs it

Comrade Tass, all these references to the Romans above just gave me an idea: Russia should join Ukraine to recreate Kievan Rus.

Simple as everything ingenious

Scandinavians are also invited as our founding fathers. Think real benefits versus imaginary benefits.

EU offers: taxes to subsidize French farmers.
Kievan Rus offers: unlimited alcohol at bargain prices.
The choice is yours

	02-05-2004 02:44									#74
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Anyway, I didn't mention the most important thing I wanted to say:

Congrats, and good luck!

	02-05-2004 03:07									#75
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Conquest or not, things will inevitably get ugly, at least in some way. They already are with the UK to some extent.

quote: Originally posted by laurentius Russia just isnt ready to join for a long time Tass. We dont hate them, some ex-soviet satellites might, but we arent having a vendetta agaisnt the Russia in general. Russia doesnt share the values EU is built on. Russia lacks of freedom of speech, freedom to be/do whatever you want, positive freedom in general, basic human rights, even a little democracy, any attempt to create social and economical equality, transparent government, independent judical system etc etc. Once they improve, I'm all for them to join. Say, give it another 50 years.

Europe? Transparent government?

	02-05-2004 03:24									#76
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quote: Originally posted by JimmyCracksCorn Conquest or not, things will inevitably get ugly, at least in some way. They already are with the UK to some extent.

Can you explain that to me?

	02-05-2004 04:05									#77
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Estonia
Poland

Living in Wales, it would be mad for me to disagree with the EU (it's where all our money comes from...)

	02-05-2004 05:40									#78
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Good. The larger the EU becomes, the sooner it will desintegrate.

	02-05-2004 05:43									#79
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quote: Originally posted by Comrade Tassadar You don't think that the EU driving up to Russian borders, but not even making conciliatory gestures to Russia and instead taking a hardline stance will make Russians feel secure? Economically, politically, or militarily?

Well said.

	02-05-2004 05:49									#80
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Could a Russian here tell us what is hardline in our stance toward Russia? I am not informed of any.

	02-05-2004 06:05									#81
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Let me just mention two points for the moment:

1) New visa barrier. Not only to the new members, but also to Kaliningrad. Nothing is offered to offset this huge setback for Russia.

2) Utter hypocricy in what concerns human rights. Two countries (Latvia and Estonia) have been admitted despite their blatant violation of human rights.

	02-05-2004 06:12									#82
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quote: Originally posted by The Vagabond 1) New visa barrier.

Is it the same visa regime than the old EU one, but merely extended to new members, or is there a whole new visa system, designed by the EU, that makes your entry in the EU more difficult than before?

quote: Not only to the new members, but also to Kaliningrad. Nothing is offered to offset this huge setback for Russia.

I admit this completely sucks for access to Kaliningrad. This should be changed, but I guess the new members won't be easily convinced to give in.

quote: 2) Utter hypocricy in what concerns human rights. Two countries (Latvia and Estonia) have been admitted despite their blatant violation of human rights.

What are they?

	02-05-2004 06:27									#83
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Is it the same visa regime than the old EU one, but merely extended to new members, or is there a whole new visa system, designed by the EU, that makes your entry in the EU more difficult than before?

Well, it's basically that before we didn't need visas to those countries, but now we need them.

quote: I admit this completely sucks for access to Kaliningrad. This should be changed, but I guess the new members won't be easily convinced to give in.

It's not only the new members who need to be convinved. Brussels needs to be convinced too.

quote: What are they?

No citizenship rights for the Russian minority, denying the right for the basic education in their mother's language, to name a few.

	02-05-2004 06:52									#84
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Estonia and Latvia are huge bastards! We know it! Comparing to other countries, they are saints however. Is the Russian minority with these citizenships? Besides, in many countries you don't get the education in your native language. Even inside the Finnish borders you might be in a situation where you can't get it.

I see 0 problems with the visas. Except for the situation in Kaliningrad, that kind of sucks and should be dealt with. I don't see anyone complaining having to apply visas visiting the US. Or other countries. This is the EU. Take it up to the man. Are you suggesting EU should pay you for it? Why are you not offering anything, it's Russia that wants something from the EU (visa issue), so you have to make the offer.

	02-05-2004 06:53									#85
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quote: Originally posted by The Vagabond Good. The larger the EU becomes, the sooner it will desintegrate.

I think that only works if you unify by force of arms.

	02-05-2004 07:21									#86
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quote: Originally posted by Lonestar I think that only works if you unify by force of arms.

We'll think about it, Lonestar

	02-05-2004 07:28									#87
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quote: Originally posted by The Vagabond 1) New visa barrier. Not only to the new members, but also to Kaliningrad.

Wrong. Simplified Kaliningrad Transit

quote: Nothing is offered to offset this huge setback for Russia.

Wrong again. EU support to Kaliningrad

So far the EU has paid about €40 Million to support your precious Baltic port.

	02-05-2004 07:30									#88
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quote: Originally posted by Pekka Estonia and Latvia are huge bastards! We know it! Comparing to other countries, they are saints however. Is the Russian minority with these citizenships?

A large part of the Russian minority is denied the citizenship.

quote: Besides, in many countries you don't get the education in your native language. Even inside the Finnish borders you might be in a situation where you can't get it.

That's because in Finland you don't have any considerable minority other than Swedish.

On the other hand, one of the official languages in Finland is Swedish. And how large is the Swedish minority? 10%? Or perhaps even less. The Baltics should follow your excellent example in this particular respect too.

quote: I see 0 problems with the visas. Except for the situation in Kaliningrad, that kind of sucks and should be dealt with. I don't see anyone complaining having to apply visas visiting the US. Or other countries.

The visa regime with the US has always been there. Visas to the new EU members have been introduced just recently, 'thanks' to the EU enlargement.

quote: This is the EU. Take it up to the man. Are you suggesting EU should pay you for it? Why are you not offering anything, it's Russia that wants something from the EU (visa issue), so you have to make the offer.

Because it was the EU that created troubles (visas in particular) for Russia by its enlargement, not the other way around.

	02-05-2004 07:32									#89
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quote: Originally posted by Lonestar I think that only works if you unify by force of arms.

Marriage can fail.

	02-05-2004 07:54									#90
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quote: Originally posted by ElTigre Wrong. Simplified Kaliningrad Transit

So what? First you cut it off completely, and then throw a small handout. And now we should be eternally thankful to you.

quote: Wrong again. EU support to Kaliningrad So far the EU has paid about €40 Million to support your precious Baltic port.

Thanks for your help. But if you think that this amount can compensate for the damage caused by the EU expansion, you are mistaken. Moreover, part of this money will go to setting up "efficient" border controls, which were not needed before in the first place.