07-05-2004 22:43									#121
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quote: Originally posted by Gangerolf Well you need to take a look at how so many Russians ended up in the Baltic countries. It's not a pretty story.

What is your point - so now it is Ok to discriminate against them because of the sins of their grand-grand-fathers?

	07-05-2004 23:10									#122
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No. But it helps explain the attitudes towards the Russian minority.

	08-05-2004 05:00									#123
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quote: Originally posted by ErikM We are talking about a language ~50% of the population speak, though. Not making it an official language - or, who cares about the actual terms, a language with some sort of status - is clearly a discrimination.

How many people speak it isn't the issue. If it's not one of their official languages, they don't have to teach in it. If the UK were overrun by French, so that our population comprised of more than 50% French people, that wouldn't mean we have to consider French an official language. They could vote for a party that did as such, but the number of people speaking a language does not, on it's own, make it official.

	08-05-2004 05:30									#124
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quote: Originally posted by Drogue How many people speak it isn't the issue. If it's not one of their official languages, they don't have to teach in it. If the UK were overrun by French, so that our population comprised of more than 50% French people, that wouldn't mean we have to consider French an official language. They could vote for a party that did as such, but the number of people speaking a language does not, on it's own, make it official.

1. If the UK were overrun by French, I'm afraid you wouldn't have much choice in which language is considered to be an official one - it would be decided by the Frenchies.

2. Thanks for explaining to me that Russian is not an official language in Baltic countries - one learns something new every day on Apolyton forums.

3. The issue I was talking about is whether a situation where the language which is spoken by ~50% of a population as a native language is not official is entirely normal. We are not talking about some remote highlander's village where this language is spoken, so it is not an issue of insufficient demand. It is not the case that immigrants should learn a country's language either - most of Russian-speakers in Baltic countries were born there.

4. Gaelic may not be an official language in the UK, but something tells me that if UK Ministry of Education would try to outlaw teaching in Gaelic, it will face 347 lawsuits in 24 hours. But percentage of Gaelic speakers in the UK is quite a bit lower than percentage of Russian speakers in the Baltic countries.

It's double standards, pure and simple.

	08-05-2004 05:51									#125
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quote: Originally posted by ErikM 1. If the UK were overrun by French, I'm afraid you wouldn't have much choice in which language is considered to be an official one - it would be decided by the Frenchies.

Yes, so why don't the Russian's decide in the Baltic states?

quote: Originally posted by ErikM 3. The issue I was talking about is whether a situation where the language which is spoken by ~50% of a population as a native language is not official is entirely normal. We are not talking about some remote highlander's village where this language is spoken, so it is not an issue of insufficient demand. It is not the case that immigrants should learn a country's language either - most of Russian-speakers in Baltic countries were born there.

Demand isn't the case either, I'm sure due to that, private schools can clean up. However puiblic schools is about what the government says. It may be politically unpopular, but it is not a violation of human rights.

quote: Originally posted by ErikM 4. Gaelic may not be an official language in the UK, but something tells me that if UK Ministry of Education would try to outlaw teaching in Gaelic, it will face 347 lawsuits in 24 hours. But percentage of Gaelic speakers in the UK is quite a bit lower than percentage of Russian speakers in the Baltic countries.

But they don't teach Gaelic in schools, it's not part of the national curriculum.

quote: Originally posted by ErikM It's double standards, pure and simple.

Not at all, it's one standard - that it's up the government to decide. If a government decides to teach in other languages, that's its choice. If it doesn't, that's also its choice. Whether or not you agree with the decision, it is their right to decide it, as the government of that state. There is no human rights abuse. If the people don't like it, vote for a government that changes it.

	08-05-2004 06:18									#126
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quote: Originally posted by Drogue Yes, so why don't the Russian's decide in the Baltic states?

Because there aren't a majority (although in Latvia they are close to parity), and Balts are strongly against it.
Also many of the Russians there are not even considered to be citizens (even if they are permanent residents) since the language thingy is one of the citizenship requirements. Thus, no voting rights.

quote: But they don't teach Gaelic in schools, it's not part of the national curriculum.

Of course they teach in Gaelic at least in some schools in Scotland and Wales.

There are plenty of Spanish schools in the US - even though Spanish is by no means an official language.

quote: There is no human rights abuse. If the people don't like it, vote for a government that changes it.

Russians don't like it, but they are a minority and often without voting rights. Sure it is up for a government to decide. It is up for everyone to discuss whether particular decisions constitutes discrimination or not.

By your logic, if the US government would decide (for instance) to deny voting rights for African-Americans, it would be totally fine and dandy - after all, these who don't agree with such a policy could always choose to elect a different government.