Apolyton Archive  |  Preserved copy of the Apolyton Civilization Site and its forums as they stood in September 2005. Read-only; nothing here can be posted to or replied to.  |  Forum index |  About this archive |  The 1998–2001 UBB forums
Today on Apolyton WARDELL INTERVIEW PROMO A.C.S. HISTORY CHAPTER 4 GET CIV4 /w FREE PLUS! A.C.S. PHOTO GALLERY GET A.O.M. V1.1
Apolyton Civilization Forums
main| civ2| civ3| civ4| smac| ctp2| ron| moo3| galciv| galciv2| alt| about|
ApolytonPLUS | register | search | faq | new posts | pm (-/-) | upload | members
hall of fame new! | civgroups | civgroups news | interviews | the column | radio | chat | directory | news | store | PLUS
Apolyton Civilization Forums : Powered by vBulletin version 2.0.3 Apolyton Civilization Forums > Civilization III > Civ3-Strategy > The Byzantines
Show a Printable Version | Email This Page to Someone! | Receive updates to this thread | Report this to Apolyton news!
16.Sep: 7 NEW FILES
15.Sep: TRIAL + NO SLEEP = ONE GAME
13.Sep: PATCH THE PREVIOUSLY UNPATCHABLE

bottom of page
   - CIV3 CONQUESTS $29.99 - CIV3 from $9.99
Author
Thread    < Last Thread     Next Thread > Post New Thread     Post A Reply
Ision is offline Ision
Warlord

Apr 2003
time: 05:35
  Old Post 02-05-2004 21:05
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#1 Report this post to a moderator
The Byzantines Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

I have decided to do a review on each CIV. My intention is to encourage debate and hopefully to help others (and myself) in their game play.

The Byzantines

Just off the coast of that peaceful AI Civ awaits certain doom. An armada of transport ships loaded with troops and escorted by the finest warships known to man has arrived at their launch point. The rain of flames that will descend on the enemy cities and ships is an irresistible force. This review is of that seafaring nightmare known by the name of the Byzantines.

Seafaring and Scientific, the Byz have a set of traits that in combination results in game play that is uniquely different from most of the other Civs. With the starting techs of Alphabet and Bronze Working the Byz have 2 of the most valued techs by the AIs – this in turn leads to a very strong position at the bargaining table come tech trading time. Early on it is not uncommon for the Byz to keep up in tech even with the goody hut-popping expansionist Civs. The Seafaring trait produces extra commerce in cities built on the coast, gives a half priced discount on harbors, increases ship range by 1 and most importantly decreases the chances of sinking out at sea prior to Astronomy. The ‘suicide galley strat’ is one that you must use - and use extensively! This last attribute alone (in the hands of a human) makes the Seafaring trait unmatched on Arch maps and quite strong on Cont maps. The AI is supremely stupid with Seafaring in that it will never attempt a suicide run for contact – the generally poor AI handling of this trait makes newer players mistake Seafaring as a weak trait.

Working along with Seafaring, is the Byz Scientific trait giving a boost to science research, producing the occasional SGL and most importantly providing the half priced libraries and universities that the Byz will build in order to keep up in the tech race, and quite often dominate it. The 2 traits are simply deadly on Arch maps – the ability to get strong tech research even when isolated, a head start on the Writing/Literature/Map Making research path and the Seafaring advantage of early ‘first’ contacts that establishes diplomatic and commercial dominance. For obvious reasons the Byz should quite often consider targeting the ‘seafaring’ Great Wonders – the Great Lighthouse being the most invaluable. This Great Wonder combined with a decent start can quite often leave your game victory in no doubt very early on. The Republic to Demo government line is well suited for this Civ.

The Byz UU is the dreaded Droman. Available with Map Making and replacing the Galley, the Droman is the absolute terror of the seas for well over an entire age! A 30 shield 2-1-3 super-galley with a transport capacity of 2 and ‘bombard ability’, the Droman can more than hold its own even with the advent of Caravels. The most controversial aspect of the Droman is its bombard ability. The Byz can play absolute havoc with enemy coastlines – delaying and retarding enemy growth to the point of a standstill – it is a ‘pillager’ second to none. In the role of amphibious escort/transport there simply is nothing like it in the game. Invading with near impunity (galleys and caravels are loath to intercept this monster) the Droman is unique in that its job has only really just begun. The enemy city will be treated to a ‘stream of fire’ reducing the defense strength of the units within, also once the city is taken the Droman can enter the city itself and provide bombard service to the responding AI units in the surrounding inland squares, and thus greatly diminish the AIs counter-attack power. The Droman will rule the seas until the advent of Frigate class warships.

The Byz are supremely well suited for the ‘balance of power’ type player, the player that likes to alternate between wars and peace – culture building and warmongering. A nice mid-sized core empire along with numerous far away Colonies (overseas captured coastal cities that provide strategic or luxury resources) is a Byz staple. As a warmongering CIV they dominate on Arch maps and do ‘nicely’ on Conts maps. As a culture Civ the cheap science buildings will have the Byz more than hold their own against a good half of the Civs in the game. On Pang maps the Civs value is drastically reduced, one upside however is that the Droman can still be put to good use even on Pang maps.

There are 3 primary downsides to this Civ. First and foremost is the map dependant nature of the Seafaring trait, like Expansionist on Arch maps – Seafaring on Pang maps is reduced to the status of a mere ‘afterthought’. Secondly, despite the fearsome nature of the Droman, it is quite awkward to properly initiate your GA with it – especially with the AI sea vessels running like hell in your presence! You will often times be forced to initiate a war of ‘expediency’ when there is a handy target vessel around. Thirdly, the Byz are generally ‘slow starters’ – without the REX advantages that other traits give, the Byz are often playing a game of catch-up. On a Conts map with the Germans and the Mongols as neighbors – a good deal of early ‘boot-licking’ is often in order. An early land based war will often retard your own growth severely. That said, on Arch maps the Byz are second to none!

Summary: An undisputed 1st tier Civ on Arch maps, a 2nd tier Civ on Conts maps and a below average 3rd tier Civ on Pang maps: the Byzantines average out to an overall 2nd tier Civ. With its unique trait combo and fascinating UU, the Byz popularity will continue to be among the highest in the game.

The Persians
The Mongols
The Greeks
The Americans
The Egyptians
The Babylonians
The Romans
The Chinese
The Germans

Last edited by Ision on 02-05-2004 at 22:46

Arnelos is offline Arnelos
Emperor
of the Free World
Sep 2002
time: 00:35
  Old Post 03-05-2004 01:27
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#2 Report this post to a moderator
Suffering from ads?

We should get ZargonX to comment on this civ, since he seems to be obsessed with playing them in every single PBEM game he's in (ever since AU 501, anyhow).

Mountain Sage is offline Mountain Sage
King

Feb 2003
time: 05:35
  Old Post 03-05-2004 18:53
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#3 Report this post to a moderator
Inflate your Upload Space

I had a few plays with the Byzantines and must confess that on an archipelago map, they do rock (well, who wants to play them on pangea anyway?).

The Dromon is the absolute shark of the seas until the advent of Frigates. It comes in very handy not only for pillaging coastlines (I seldom do that, since I have to rebuilt everything afterwards...), but especially to weaken a counterattack. Conquer a costal town, 'land' some Dromons and fire all the approaching enemy units. Fire-breathing cannon! One age before!

As for the Byzantines being slow-starters, who cares when you play on archipelago? Your home island rexxing is over after 4-8 cities anyway. Time to explore the wide world.
The only inconvenience I had a couple of times with the Dromon was when a stupid barbs galley came too close. Imagine, a barbs galley dictating my GA!

Yes, the Byzantines are the only civ worth playing with on archipelago, besides Scandinavia, of course.

ZargonX is offline ZargonX
Emperor
Space
Sep 2002
time: 00:35
  Old Post 03-05-2004 19:08
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#4 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote:
We should get ZargonX to comment on this civ, since he seems to be obsessed with playing them in every single PBEM game he's in (ever since AU 501, anyhow).


It's true Ision hit most of the high points of the Byzantine, which are the main reasons I play with them.

I might also add that the Byzantine starting techs give them an excellent jumping point for the Philosophy beeline, which can snag them MM (and the Dromon) for free, and much earlier. As for other good points of the Byz, well, I'll show you my AARs when some of these PBEMs wrap up

alexman is offline alexman
Emperor
Hunt Valley, MD
Jan 1970
time: 00:35
  Old Post 03-05-2004 19:27 Visit alexman's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#5 Report this post to a moderator
Re: The Byzantines Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Nice article, as usual. I agree with most of what you wrote, except:

quote:
Originally posted by Ision
With the starting techs of Alphabet and Bronze Working the Byz have 2 of the most valued techs by the AIs – this in turn leads to a very strong position at the bargaining table come tech trading time.

The AI doesn't value Bronze Working very highly for trade, it just researches it at top priority. This means that when the Byzantines meet an AI civ, that civ will be well on their way to having already researched Bronze Working, so it will not give them much in exchange for it.

quote:

The Republic to Demo government line is well suited for this Civ.

This depends on your strategy, of course. If you are building tons of Dromons for bombardment, your unit support costs might be too high, so you might be better of starting with Monarchy. I went directly Monarchy-to-Communuism in AU 501, for example.

quote:

The Byz UU is the dreaded Droman.

Ahem...

quote:

despite the fearsome nature of the Droman, it is quite awkward to properly initiate your GA with it – especially with the AI sea vessels running like hell in your presence!

Did you know that when you bombard a city that contains another ship, the ship is targeted first? With lethal sea bombardment, all you have to do is find an AI galley, follow it to port, and then kill it there to start your GA.

quote:

the Byz are generally ‘slow starters’ – without the REX advantages that other traits give, the Byz are often playing a game of catch-up.

The slow growth is surely offset by the early boost in the tech race, since with early contact monopolies you can act as a middle man for tech brokering.

MotownDennis is offline MotownDennis
Warlord
Michigan, U.S.
Feb 2003
time: 00:35
  Old Post 03-05-2004 19:37
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#6 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

I, too, am fascinated with this civ and have tried them quite a few times.

I've never been able to get a great game going with them though. They are so SLOOOOOW to get rolling. Yes, they can keep pace tech-wise, which helps, but their expansion is just so darned snail-like. I believe that if you can make it through the early game in good shape, you'll be able to dominate from the middle ages onward.

All in all, a very fun and interesting new civ.

Goethe80 is offline Goethe80
Chieftain
Leicester, UK
Jul 2003
time: 05:35
  Old Post 03-05-2004 19:42
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#7 Report this post to a moderator
Enter the AD-FREE zone

I agree that the starting tech of Alphabet is very useful for early trades, but I'm not so sure about Bronze Working. The AI tends to almost always research that first, and by the time you get around to meeting them, they will have already finished researching that or are 1/2way there. Either way, the value of Bronze Working for tech trading is quite low.

Trip is offline Trip
Firaxis Games
Hunt Valley
Apr 2002
time: 00:35
  Old Post 03-05-2004 23:53 Visit Trip's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#8 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote:
Originally posted by Mountain Sage
The only inconvenience I had a couple of times with the Dromon was when a stupid barbs galley came too close. Imagine, a barbs galley dictating my GA!

You probably should have let them get a little closer, since barbs can't trigger your GA.

Aqualung71 is offline Aqualung71
Emperor
Lord Desolator of the Desolation Row, C3CDG
Oct 2002
time: 12:35
  Old Post 04-05-2004 07:37
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#9 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote:
Originally posted by Mountain Sage
The only inconvenience I had a couple of times with the Dromon was when a stupid barbs galley came too close. Imagine, a barbs galley dictating my GA!


Barbs can't trigger a GA.


Nice post as usual Ision. Yes, the Byzantines are formidable on Archipelago, as AU501 proved. Seafaring in combination with Scientific makes you almost unstoppable in the tech race once you're set up properly. Cheap Libraries and Universities, lots of coastal cities with the commerce bonus and the research pace can be awesome.

EDIT: oops, Trip beat me to it

Ision is offline Ision
Warlord

Apr 2003
time: 05:35
  Old Post 04-05-2004 18:05
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#10 Report this post to a moderator
Tired of ads?

Alexman,

Please remember that the reviews are vast 'generaliztions' - so when I say Republic to Demo is suited for X, or Monarchy to Commie is suited for Y - I am merely generalizing based on the starting techs, CIV traits and the most common play-style that is usually applied to that specific CIV.

quote:
Did you know that when you bombard a city that contains another ship, the ship is targeted first? With lethal sea bombardment, all you have to do is find an AI galley, follow it to port, and then kill it there to start your GA.


Yes I did know that - and I would say that this would still qualify as an 'awkward' method of initiating a GA in comparison to 27 of the other CIVs.

quote:
The slow growth is surely offset by the early boost in the tech race, since with early contact monopolies you can act as a middle man for tech brokering.


The review must take into account all map types - not just the map type in which the CIV excels the most, that said - all things considered the Byz REX is very average on a 'whole' - fast on arch & slow on pang.

Thanks for your input.

Ision

Mace is offline Mace
Warlord
Trade Empire of the Carthaginians
Nov 2003
time: 23:35
  Old Post 04-05-2004 22:27
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#11 Report this post to a moderator
Increase Your PM Length

Good review. It made me try a Byz game for the first time.

I chose large arch map, but 60% water. That was a mistake. What I got was a world with 1 stringy large continent with lots of thin peninsulas, along with many outrigger islets.

Of course, all the civ's started on this big continent. This was bad for my Byz, I couldn't out-REX (on Monarch) the Russians and Arabs and Mayans who surrounded me.

Moral of the story is if you choose Archipeligo map with the Byzantines, I'd suggest 70 or 80 percent water...

Solomwi is offline Solomwi

King
Don King of the Apolyton HLA Movement
Dec 2002
time: 23:35
  Old Post 05-05-2004 00:38
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#12 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

I got the same thing once, playing vanilla with the English, Mace. Set up a huge arch. map and got a long, thin pangea, with maybe Japan and/or Spain stuck on islands themselves. Then found out I had it on 60% water.

Theseus is offline Theseus

Emperor
The warmonger formerly known as rpodos. Gathering Storm! Apolyton Spirit!!
Apr 2002
time: 00:35
  Old Post 05-05-2004 04:58
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#13 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote:
Originally posted by Mountain Sage
It comes in very handy not only for pillaging coastlines (I seldom do that, since I have to rebuilt everything afterwards...)


I don't do it to the nearby land of AI civs that I'll soon be acquiring... but H*TDAMN you can mess with the more distant AIs somethin' awful!!

Very good post, Ision. Is there one of these threads that you would want me to link to in the Must Reads, with a description of the series?

Ision is offline Ision
Warlord

Apr 2003
time: 05:35
  Old Post 05-05-2004 05:24
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#14 Report this post to a moderator
Full PM-box? Change here!

quote:
Is there one of these threads that you would want me to link to in the Must Reads, with a description of the series?


I am not sure what you mean. But there is no single 'thread' that only contains the links to all of them at this site. If you feel it merits such let me know.

Ision

Theseus is offline Theseus

Emperor
The warmonger formerly known as rpodos. Gathering Storm! Apolyton Spirit!!
Apr 2002
time: 00:35
  Old Post 05-05-2004 07:50
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#15 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I was figuring on creating a link to one of them, with a description that that thread would have links to the rest. Make sense?

Ision is offline Ision
Warlord

Apr 2003
time: 05:35
  Old Post 05-05-2004 08:00
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#16 Report this post to a moderator
Suffering from ads?

i see - okay do it

thanks -

Ision

kobo1d is offline kobo1d
Chieftain

Apr 2004
time: 05:35
  Old Post 20-05-2004 07:45
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#17 Report this post to a moderator
Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

This thread inspired me too to try the Byzantines. First game I tried with them I put it on 80% water but alas got the damn stringy pangea as well. That game was hard because I really didn't use the Byzantines advantages, in which case they are a very poor civ choice So the next game I got a nice archipelago with big fat islands. It was an Standard sized epic with two of my friends and 4 AIs. Now I see the power...

Tian Dan is offline Tian Dan
Settler
Kingston, Ontario
Jun 2004
time: 05:35
  Old Post 11-06-2004 08:00
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#18 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton

My Girlfriend plays as them all the time and she always ends up winning due to culture. Of course thats because we have a nonaggression Pact.

Trip is offline Trip
Firaxis Games
Hunt Valley
Apr 2002
time: 00:35
  Old Post 11-06-2004 09:27 Visit Trip's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#19 Report this post to a moderator
Full PM-box? Change here!

Just played the Byzantines in a MP game (random civs) against the Incas. No horses, no iron.

They suck.

MotownDennis is offline MotownDennis
Warlord
Michigan, U.S.
Feb 2003
time: 00:35
  Old Post 11-06-2004 17:38
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#20 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Heh - they're hard to do anything with even WITH horses or iron.

Nakar Gabab is offline Nakar Gabab
Warlord
of Pedantic Nitpicking
May 2001
time: 00:35
  Old Post 12-06-2004 00:59
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#21 Report this post to a moderator
Increase the size of your Attachments

Well, at least they're not the worst (*COUGH*Hittites*COUGH*)... that's something, right?

Arrian is offline Arrian
Emperor
Kneel before Grog!
Jul 2001
time: 00:35
  Old Post 12-06-2004 01:59
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#22 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

The Hittites can be solid.

If you get 4 ancient era SGLs

-Arrian

Trip is offline Trip
Firaxis Games
Hunt Valley
Apr 2002
time: 00:35
  Old Post 12-06-2004 07:35 Visit Trip's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#23 Report this post to a moderator
Remove this text

3-Man Chariots can be a solid unit in the right situation. Good defense, good for pillaging. Not very flexible though... no jungle and no mountains. Once I was the Hittites stuck behind a large jungle between me and my opponent. That didn't go so well...

MotownDennis is offline MotownDennis
Warlord
Michigan, U.S.
Feb 2003
time: 00:35
  Old Post 15-06-2004 07:06
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#24 Report this post to a moderator
Put an end to popups!

The Hittites are MUCH better than the Byzantines IMO, if only because of the expansionist trait.

Trip is offline Trip
Firaxis Games
Hunt Valley
Apr 2002
time: 00:35
  Old Post 15-06-2004 07:19 Visit Trip's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#25 Report this post to a moderator
Suffering from ads?

Unless you're stuck behind a jungle, which means no (good) mobile units and no GA...

MotownDennis is offline MotownDennis
Warlord
Michigan, U.S.
Feb 2003
time: 00:35
  Old Post 15-06-2004 07:24
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#26 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

If you're stuck behind a jungle, you don't need mobile units.

The lack of a GA is no more of a problem than Persia without iron or China without horses.

Trip is offline Trip
Firaxis Games
Hunt Valley
Apr 2002
time: 00:35
  Old Post 15-06-2004 07:29 Visit Trip's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#27 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Meh. Horsemen can take out units with a chance of retreating if they're losing (think sentries) and it's not likely the jungle will exist forever.

Cort Haus is offline Cort Haus
Emperor
London
Apr 2002
time: 05:35
  Old Post 13-07-2004 22:02
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#28 Report this post to a moderator
Remove this text

Bumped for Ision's attention.

Ision, hats off for this excellent series of articles. I notice that over on the Other Site the series now has many more civs covered. Theseus already suggested how a homepage of all these on Poly could be a good inclusion on the Must Reads.

As much excellent work has been done, posting the new ones here would be massively appreciated. I think you get a better class of response on this site too - but then I'm biased

skrobism is offline skrobism
King
USA
Oct 2000
time: 23:35
  Old Post 06-10-2004 03:33
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#29 Report this post to a moderator
Enter the AD-FREE zone

Bumped for my attention.

  < Last Thread     Next Thread > Post New Thread     Post A Reply
All times are GMT. The time now is 05:35.
Apolyton Time is 00:35.
    top of page
Rate This Thread:
Forum Jump:
Forum Rules:
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
HTML code is ON
vB code is ON
Smilies are ON
[IMG] code is ON
 




Contact Us - Apolyton Civilization Site - Support Us!

Building a better Apolyton through better information. Click here and take our poll!
Non-US visitors, click here!

Powered by: vBulletin Version 2.0.3
Copyright ©2000, 2001, Jelsoft Enterprises Limited.

Page generated in 0.0574 seconds (91.97% PHP - 8.03% MySQL) with 30 queries
Page Loading Time:

Support Apolyton: Amazon USA | Amazon UK | Amazon DE | Amazon FR |
Support Apolyton and get FREE PLUS, Buy from Chips&Bits: Galactic Civilizations | Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition | Call to Power 2 | Civilization: The Boardgame | GURPS/ Alpha Centauri | Alpha Centauri | Civilization IV | Civilization III: Complete |


Front Page | Civilization IV | Civilization III | Civilization II | Call to Power II | Alpha Centauri | Master of Orion III
Rise of Nations | Galactic Civilizations | Galactic Civilizations II | Misc
Alt.Civs | Civ I | C:CtP I | About | News | Directory | Apolyton Store | Forums | Chat | Columns | Interviews | Newsletter
Scenario League | CSC | Clash of Civs | Spanish Site | CtP Maps | Cradle of Civ | WesW's Ctp1/2 Site | Civ3 Haven

apolyton.net | apolyton.com | civilization2.net | civilization3.net | civilization4.net | civilizationiv.info | calltopower.net | galciv.net | galciv2.net | moo3.net