02-05-2004 21:55									#1
	Pact Brother? Ha! Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Ok, if someone swears to be your Pact Bro., and then proceeds to terraform your own land &/or land near your turf that you'd really rather not see raised or lowered, for example, then is there any means to tell your Pact Bro. to NOT do such - besides quitting your Pact, and attacking them or mind probing their formers?

This has happened a few times, and its frustrating when these fractions that are supposed to do as they're told, can't even be told not to do such!

	02-05-2004 23:12									#2
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No.

Nerve gas pods

	02-05-2004 23:21									#3
	Full PM-box? Change here!

you could raise and lower their land to piss them off . But computer players are unlikely to be pissed off by this

	03-05-2004 00:07									#4
	Increase Your PM Length

It won't let you raise pactmates land will it?

-Jam

	03-05-2004 00:15									#5
	Remove this text

not sure about that, but I do know I can terriform land. I have removed fungus from my pactmate (a servile pact though) land. I felt that fungus was too close to my cities, so I removed it.

	03-05-2004 00:56									#6
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The game doesn't allow you to raise or lower land close to a pactmate's territory.
I said close? Sorry, ridiculously far away.

	03-05-2004 01:19									#7
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Isn't there an option to expel a pact-mates units without breaking pact? I'm almost certain this exists, though perhaps only for Pacts of Submission...

	03-05-2004 17:00									#8
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

In diplo screen you can ask him to redraw his troops, the option stays open even when pacted.

	04-05-2004 23:55									#9
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Nuke them....Nuke them all.

	05-05-2004 00:37									#10
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The most annoying thing your "allies" will do is put sea bases along your coastline, robbing you of your territory.

The designers didn't want the oceans to be carved into huge blocks of sovereign territory, so they cut the territorial radius to 2 squares, but this isn't the big problem: the big problem is a bug (or very ill-conceived "feature") which causes bases built on land NOT to claim the 2-square radius that sea bases do, meaning your coastlines are fair game unless you "guard" them with outlying sea bases, which sort of defeats the purpose.

Territory rules needed this "tweak" to really make them work: it should be "diplomatically illegal" to place a new base if it denies another player's city any square within its radius. Ahh, well.

Say, did they "fix" this in Civ 3?

	05-05-2004 03:17									#11
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In SMAX, and perhaps patched SMAC, coastal bases claim all adjacent sea tiles as your territory. This isn't the entire city radius of 2 tiles, but it's something.

	05-05-2004 03:56									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Santiago_Clause The most annoying thing your "allies" will do is put sea bases along your coastline, robbing you of your territory.

I was looking into a alphax.txt tweak to eliminate seabases altogether. I like ocean on the map to provide an obstacle between continents. With sea bases there is no point in air craft carriers. Just built a string of seabases to your destination. Without seabases there will be more competition for those small islands in the middle of large oceans (a al Hawaii). Plus seabases are basically immue to chop and drop. All seabases seem to be good for is adding b-drones to my empire

I used to think seabases were one of the coolest things about SMAC when I first got it, now they are bane.

	05-05-2004 05:12									#13
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a bit hard to defend as well.

although easy to take

I think they can provide some good energy with tidal harnesses.

	05-05-2004 05:33									#14
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Crawlers are cheaper though.

	05-05-2004 07:20									#15
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I never build seabases except in rare "choke and hold" sea lanes for protection. All their terraforming models cost too much, and with too little minerals to make it doable.

But I capture quite a few and usually end up gifting them to my pactmates.

	05-05-2004 07:51									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Skanky Burns Crawlers are cheaper though.

not when you conquer them. And yes I do conquer them. Often it's the only way to get the ai to go to peace with me.

I tried obliterating them, but I get tagged for doing atrocities when I do that. So I might as well put them to good use.

	05-05-2004 09:29									#17
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Crawlers are cheaper than trawlers, so land base > sea base.
Sea bases have less minerals to use and ships are more expensive, so a land base will be pumping out crawlers at a faster rate than a similar sea base.

	05-05-2004 09:37									#18
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Oh, and if I run out of room on my land to build more cities or places to place my crawlers, I just raise some more land along my coast. It eliminates the need for seabases and helps convert any seabases I capture to the much nicer land variety base.

	05-05-2004 09:55									#19
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one thing I hate is when the AI builds their sea bases right next to your land

That's almost grounds to go to war. Especially when they take some sqares I'm using.

	05-05-2004 14:26									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Skanky Burns Crawlers are cheaper than trawlers, so land base > sea base. Sea bases have less minerals to use and ships are more expensive, so a land base will be pumping out crawlers at a faster rate than a similar sea base.

Never thought of producing trawlers on a coastal base and use those to harvest the seas? Or even rehome them to a seabase and let it trawl for it then?

I'm busy as Morgan on my small Chiron map (Thinker), and use trawlers extensively now. I even constructed two small scaled energy parks this time.

I prefer to keep the sealanes as blockades against agressive AI's, that way if they attempt an invasion, they land on a single spot and are easier to block then if a whole army comes over spread over 5-6 tiles. And a transport is easier to destroy then military unit after unit if I spot those early enough.

	05-05-2004 18:36									#21
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quote: Never thought of producing trawlers on a coastal base and use those to harvest the seas? Or even rehome them to a seabase and let it trawl for it then?

Of course, but that is another point against sea bases. Land bases (on the coast) can build both land and sea crawlers and use them the turn they are built. Sea bases need an expensive transport if they want to utilise crawlers.

	05-05-2004 19:59									#22
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Theirs a nice side effect of having trawlers harvest sea resources. Other players/AI's can't benefit from those then. That alone makes them worthwhile IMO. Opponents won't grow that fast, and if they want to start a war over it, first victim is the far-off trawler, so no real sneak attack then.

And about you opposing the use of transports? A player just needs to construct a few early on to gather sea pods. Later those can be used then to transport land crawlers if no military transports are necessary.

As for using them the turn they are built, trawlers can during movement towards their new base on the end of turns use the available tile resources as well. It's less, but it's something for on the way.

	05-05-2004 20:00									#23
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Sea bases come with a free rectanks though, and they make GREAT airbases.

-Jam

	05-05-2004 20:18									#24
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Yeah, only too bad they're as well sitting ducks out there.

Btw, a question. An interceptor on an carrier transport, will it defend it's ship against air strikes?

	05-05-2004 21:01									#25
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quote: Originally posted by Jamski Sea bases come with a free rectanks though

IIRC the total cost of sea CPs is the cost of a land CP plus the cost of rec tanks, so no, not really free.

	05-05-2004 21:13									#26
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But all ships are more expensive than their land-based equivalents, so the rec commons is at a discount at the very least.

Question: Can you transport a land-based CP in a transport to the sea and start a seabase with it?

	05-05-2004 22:51									#27
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quote: IIRC the total cost of sea CPs is the cost of a land CP plus the cost of rec tanks, so no, not really free.

But only before Fusion, after that its a good deal.

-Jam

	05-05-2004 23:48									#28
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Skanky: no, not possible. I tried before and a land cp can't even increase the population of a seabase.

	06-05-2004 11:54									#29
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quote: Originally posted by Alinestra Covelia I never build seabases except in rare "choke and hold" sea lanes for protection. All their terraforming models cost too much, and with too little minerals to make it doable. But I capture quite a few and usually end up gifting them to my pactmates.

Word. I don't really bother with seabases unless like Allie said, they are for choke-and-hold area's...OR, I'll place them off the shoreline from another factions territory which I plan to use as a forward base for invasion.

Building all those farms and tidal harness crap and mines just aren't worth the time and/or effort. I give 'em away to LOYAL pactmates.

	06-05-2004 18:51									#30
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

I simply love to play a seafaction. It gives overall more flexibility IMO. And beware the opponent on whom's coastline my transports are approaching...