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Apolyton Civilization Forums : Powered by vBulletin version 2.0.3 Apolyton Civilization Forums > Civilization III > Civ3-General > I just had a rather sick idea for a WWII scenario...
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smellymummy is offline smellymummy
King

Aug 1999
time: 21:35
  Old Post 20-05-2004 06:52
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I wonder how many players went through the pacific ww2 conquest as the USA, rushed to build the A bomb... and then grinned when they gleefully dropped it on Japan. or just a regular civ game, build massive amounts of nukes and just blast the AI to bits.

why is nuking a people to nothingness perfectly acceptable, yet talking about recreating the holocaust in a game is so politcally incorrect that people jump up and down yelling close the thread, as if they we're victims of it. no one seems to care for the millions of russians, chinese, etc that also died during that period.

I think the idea overall is good, just not all that original. It's just dressing up something in the game, and that apparently some people find that dress very disgusting. besides, wouldn't this thread have been better in the creation forum?

Antrine is offline Antrine
Prince

May 2003
time: 05:35
  Old Post 20-05-2004 07:15
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I hate to see this thread litter the Creation Forum, however it is mostly a graveyard and this would then find a nice place among the dead...

You’re noting hypocrisy in regard to Atom Bombs and such is valid. So do we slide down and keep to the gutter with all this? As way of background, I was involved in ‘what if’ war games in the military a few decades ago (gee how good time flies) and we concluded that both politically and environmentally there is NO SUCH THING as a WINNABLE nuclear war or even the USE of only ONE bomb, anywhere at anytime against human populations.

Why? First, no matter who you are, it is instant political suicide.
Second? There is virtually nowhere populated that is also a valid target that would not poison your friends (or shall I say ‘former’ friends) and not as well poison yourself eventually in ways very hard to calculate.

World awareness and morality simply would fry the ‘offender’ who hurled such a weapon. Conclusion, our nuclear weapons are near worthless. This is why we in US have been pushing conventional upgrades right and left.

I do not play nuclear scenarios they leave my stomach sick.

smellymummy is offline smellymummy
King

Aug 1999
time: 21:35
  Old Post 20-05-2004 07:18
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personally, I love them

Antrine is offline Antrine
Prince

May 2003
time: 05:35
  Old Post 20-05-2004 07:20
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Don't worry smellymummy I will stay clear of your fantasy worlds, even as errant Titan god next life when I take to wandering around a bit more.

Switch is offline Switch
Prince
This just in, water has been discovered on Mars...
Apr 2002
time: 00:35
  Old Post 20-05-2004 08:02 Visit Switch's homepage!
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There is a difference, socially, between nukes and holocaust in-game: nukes were a weapon of war, intended for the purposes of war. The Holocaust was a personal, direct hate-crime, commited not out of war or survival (although the nuke was more to stop the war so the USSR didn't get Japan), but simply out of bigotted hatred. It's about the purpose of the atrocity that defines the social acceptance in a game, not how actually disgusting it is.

Lord Nuclear is offline Lord Nuclear
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Jun 2002
time: 21:35
  Old Post 20-05-2004 08:03
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All I can say is:

Vince278 is offline Vince278
King

Dec 2002
time: 05:35
  Old Post 20-05-2004 09:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Antrine
You’re noting hypocrisy in regard to Atom Bombs and such is valid. So do we slide down and keep to the gutter with all this? As way of background, I was involved in ‘what if’ war games in the military a few decades ago (gee how good time flies) and we concluded that both politically and environmentally there is NO SUCH THING as a WINNABLE nuclear war or even the USE of only ONE bomb, anywhere at anytime against human populations.


Sounds like the old Cold War mentality (and impossible to verify short of actual use of many bombs). Bush believes, chillingly enough, that they can be used without the world coming to an end.

Lord Nuclear is offline Lord Nuclear
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Jun 2002
time: 21:35
  Old Post 20-05-2004 09:30
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What does this have to do with the thread? Stick it where it belongs: The OTF

Dis is offline Dis
Emperor
Las Vegas, Nevada
Feb 2000
time: 21:35
  Old Post 20-05-2004 11:54 Visit Dis's homepage!
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yes there has been renewed talk of using tactical nukes.

and believe it or not they could have their uses. Even the MOAB is not very good at breaking open mountain bunkers. A tactical nuke really is the only way.

In most cases it would be political suicide.

But Bush is crazy enough to use it to get Osama Bin Ladin. Although using that kind of weapon would make it difficult to prove you killed OBL. As for political fallout, he would survive. It's not like he cares what France thinks anyways.

Vince278 is offline Vince278
King

Dec 2002
time: 05:35
  Old Post 20-05-2004 12:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Nuclear Master
What does this have to do with the thread? Stick it where it belongs: The OTF


Using atomics is a sick idea for a WWII scenario.

smellymummy is offline smellymummy
King

Aug 1999
time: 21:35
  Old Post 20-05-2004 12:42
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as if caring about what france thinks is important

Vince278 is offline Vince278
King

Dec 2002
time: 05:35
  Old Post 20-05-2004 12:43
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quote:
Originally posted by smellymummy
as if caring about what france thinks is important


Plotinus is offline Plotinus
Prince

Oct 2003
time: 05:35
  Old Post 23-05-2004 16:22
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quote:
Originally posted by smellymummy
as if caring about what france thinks is important


More important than caring about what America thinks, that's for sure.

Aqualung71 is offline Aqualung71
Emperor
Lord Desolator of the Desolation Row, C3CDG
Oct 2002
time: 12:35
  Old Post 23-05-2004 16:28
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quote:
Originally posted by smellymummy
as if caring about what france thinks is important


Presumably you mean from an American viewpoint?

Last Conformist is offline Last Conformist
King
of Calakmul
Jul 2003
time: 06:35
  Old Post 23-05-2004 16:47
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The other difference 'tween the holocaust and the use of nuclear weapons is that the later served a purpose that translates into something a Civ player will want to - defeating external enemies - while the former, in Civ terms, was purely self-defeating. Give a player nukes, and he'll happily use them to kill the AIs. Give the same player the opportunity to spend considerable resources on killing off parts of his own population for no material gain, and he won't use it. You'd have to introduce some ahistorical incentive - like Kuciwalker's culture idea - to make it worthwhile.

Vince278 is offline Vince278
King

Dec 2002
time: 05:35
  Old Post 24-05-2004 03:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Plotinus
More important than caring about what America thinks, that's for sure.


America can actually do what it says. France, on the other hand, is merely an annoyance that is mostly talk. Please be constructive and actually do something for a change.

Last Conformist is offline Last Conformist
King
of Calakmul
Jul 2003
time: 06:35
  Old Post 24-05-2004 03:41
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Like invading Côte d'Ivoir?

Vince278 is offline Vince278
King

Dec 2002
time: 05:35
  Old Post 24-05-2004 04:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Last Conformist
Like invading Côte d'Ivoir?


Oooooh impressive!
The Ivoirians are well known for their formidable navy and airforce. Their well disciplined and supplied professional army is justly feared throughout West Africa. The fiercely loyal and motivated populace will resist to the last breath...
(Hope it won't be another Dien Bien Phu or Algiers for them)

Trip is offline Trip
Firaxis Games
Hunt Valley
Apr 2002
time: 00:35
  Old Post 24-05-2004 04:06 Visit Trip's homepage!
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Calm down now children...

Vince278 is offline Vince278
King

Dec 2002
time: 05:35
  Old Post 24-05-2004 04:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Trip
Calm down now children...


Trip is offline Trip
Firaxis Games
Hunt Valley
Apr 2002
time: 00:35
  Old Post 24-05-2004 04:13 Visit Trip's homepage!
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If this continues the thread will be closed and everyone will end up banned, I guarantee it.

Plotinus is offline Plotinus
Prince

Oct 2003
time: 05:35
  Old Post 24-05-2004 16:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Vince278


America can actually do what it says. France, on the other hand, is merely an annoyance that is mostly talk. Please be constructive and actually do something for a change.


Ah, such as, for example, allying with the nascent US in the revolutionary war...? Remember, if it weren't for France, there wouldn't be a United States in the first place! Even the White House is a copy of an original in Paris.

smellymummy is offline smellymummy
King

Aug 1999
time: 21:35
  Old Post 24-05-2004 23:45
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ah and remember if it weren't for the US france would still be ....

my point about the nukes above is that there's already plenty of really bad things we can do in the game (i'm not the only one who'll kill off all non civ3 citizens). and then there's fuss because someone wants to stick a nazi symbol on it

Lord Nuclear is offline Lord Nuclear
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Jun 2002
time: 21:35
  Old Post 24-05-2004 23:55
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Stop the off topic crap, or I have a feeling all of your post counts will be going down in the future.

Switch is offline Switch
Prince
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Apr 2002
time: 00:35
  Old Post 26-05-2004 09:31 Visit Switch's homepage!
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I find it somewhat ironic that Nuclear Master should post at this time

I don't think this is a good thread for a France/US battle...take that to the OT fora.

Vince278 is offline Vince278
King

Dec 2002
time: 05:35
  Old Post 26-05-2004 09:38
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Return to topic attempt: Does anyone have any other sick ideas for WWII (or any other era) scenarios?

Lord Nuclear is offline Lord Nuclear
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Jun 2002
time: 21:35
  Old Post 26-05-2004 09:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Switch
I find it somewhat ironic that Nuclear Master should post at this time

I don't think this is a good thread for a France/US battle...take that to the OT fora.


I'm always ironic

quote:
Originally posted by Vince278
Return to topic attempt: Does anyone have any other sick ideas for WWII (or any other era) scenarios?


No, although I would like some form of a WWII European theatre scenario

Jaybe is offline Jaybe

King
Las Vegas, NV USA
Sep 2001
time: 21:35
  Old Post 26-05-2004 11:43
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quote:
No, although I would like some form of a WWII European theatre scenario

First of all, remove all artillery (since the AI doesn't use it) and replace them with strong offensive and expensive "assault" units. For the epic game I create units with double attack strength and artillery-strength defensive bombardment which cost the same as the original ground-combat unit plus FOUR artillery units. No defense-strength bonus.

I have given them 1 additional hitpoint, but that makes them defend first, unless they have lowered defense strength. The AI WILL build and use these assault units.

Vince278 is offline Vince278
King

Dec 2002
time: 05:35
  Old Post 26-05-2004 12:29
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Got spare money?

Does balance go out the window?

Lord Nuclear is offline Lord Nuclear
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Jun 2002
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  Old Post 26-05-2004 20:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Jaybe
quote:
No, although I would like some form of a WWII European theatre scenario

First of all, remove all artillery (since the AI doesn't use it) and replace them with strong offensive and expensive "assault" units. For the epic game I create units with double attack strength and artillery-strength defensive bombardment which cost the same as the original ground-combat unit plus FOUR artillery units. No defense-strength bonus.

I have given them 1 additional hitpoint, but that makes them defend first, unless they have lowered defense strength. The AI WILL build and use these assault units.



 
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