03-05-2004 05:24									#1
	I just had a rather sick idea for a WWII scenario... Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

... at least in Conquests.

You know the sacrifice thing in the Mesoamerica Conquest? Have Nazi units have a chance of enslaving to a Jew unit, which can be sacrificed for "culture". Is necessary to fill in the culture gaps left by conquest (since the Nazi's would be under Fascism, rushing a temple wouldn't work).

	03-05-2004 05:44									#2
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I smell 'bad taste' brewing on this one, I pass...

Too close, how about something far, far away .........................................................................

Last edited by Antrine on 03-05-2004 at 08:35

	03-05-2004 10:04									#3
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I most whole-heartedly second Antrine on this one. Bad taste indeed and insensitive to say the least

I suggest this thread be deleted.

	03-05-2004 10:13									#4
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It is sick, and bad taste indeed. But the Aztecs did much the same thing, and this is represented in the game.

Nevertheless, that was hundreds of years ago, while the Holocaust was only decades ago. At this time, it is still much too sensitive a topic to be so casually displayed in a game. Perhaps by the year 2500, but now is not a good time.

Perhaps never will be a good time, as the atrocity that can be unfittingly summed up in one word, Holocaust, was much worse than the sacrifices of the Aztecs...

Either way, if you do think it fitting for a mod, then I would suggest that you keep it as a private mod.

	03-05-2004 10:23									#5
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In any case, ritual blood-sacrifice can hardly be compared to Jewish extermination. Again, delete this thread before some of our Israeli friends start reading it.

	03-05-2004 10:38									#6
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if you want to make a scenario like that, go ahead. Just don't expect anyone to host the damn thing.

True there are differences between sacrifices and holocaust. But civilians dying is civilians dying. The game engine doesn't see it any other way. Although that's the pinch, the game engine does lack the proper ability. As those enslaved units are created by attacking and conquering military units, which isn't accurate, as the jews weren't really in the military. The game engine would have to have the ability to create those enslaved units from the city population. And to be historically accurate, it would be your own city population. Why would you intentionally lower your city population?

	03-05-2004 11:13									#7
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Well, let me clarify even a little further by 'bad taste' and 'far far away'. For me even Aztec ritual sacrifice as depicted in C3C is BAD TASTE, if not just ask someone from those races! They are yet with us.

Anyway I also think rush pop build is somewhat tacky.

Far, far away means something akin to 'dark elves' sacrificing 'knights' in a FANTASY. We have plenty of challenges here to forge global tolerance and kindness without this kind of careless rudeness.

Just my thinking, and I hope it represents more and not less of popular opinion.

	03-05-2004 11:37									#8
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rush pop build is a little different. It means you are pushing your slave population so hard, they just keel over due to over exertion, hazardous working conditions etc.

	03-05-2004 11:48									#9
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Agreed, so I modded to be either early time period government or a fantasy CIV, however why is Nazism so blessed with this foolishness, pop build? Concentration camps are a nefarious abberation of humanity gone bad, however what was produced by these camps besides deep despair? The Communists engaged in forced labor more with prisoners of war, however again even still does that really account for pop build?

Building the walls of China certainly accounts for pop build! Building religious pyraminds in SouthEast Asia (very ancient) also accounts for same. However this does not still account for this insensitiveness and just plain crappy thinking.

Sorry Kucinich, but I think a sincere apology in order!

	04-05-2004 00:20									#10
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I'll be contrarian and say it does not bother me.

The game engine already encourages ethnic cleansing and the killing of the civilians of enemy cities. How would this be worse?

	04-05-2004 00:39									#11
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Like I said, I hope popular opinion is more kind-hearted and thoughtful, even if appearing not.

I remain adamant; this just stinks! So I will conduct myself accordingly. It is very unfortunate that these game designers decided to add 'ritual sacrifice' for to gain 'culture'. Ug, Firaxis needs to have it's 'heart' examined. Yuk, yuk, yuk.....

It just wasn't necessary or well enough examined 'CULTURALLY'! There are and remain many, many other useful things that could be done to improve this game.

If the 'not called committee' for CIV4 is lurking, I strongly suggest they flag this feature as one they YANK out!

Sincerely,

	04-05-2004 01:11									#12
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Well the complete utter ruthless bad taste of this idea aside, one would successfully argue that the Nazi cleansing actually deprived them of a significant portion of a rich and deep internal culture (as well as a semblance of humanity). Thus gaining culture from such a move makes no sense. The fact that this is being considered makes less.

edit: the comma splice.

Last edited by TheArsenal on 04-05-2004 at 02:30

	04-05-2004 01:39									#13
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but I would like to address the issue of unpleasant historical events in civ games.

Sitting here in the 21st century, we can say that certain ideas should never be in a game, because they aren't politically correct.

but the fact is some of these things did happen. And if you want to make a semi-historical game, you should include them.

I don't support including anything like the halocaust because it had no benefit to society. As the post above me states, it did not raise culture, and in fact, hurt the german society. Who knows what kind of economy hit they took (less workers, less consumers etc.). So there is no reason to implement this into a game.

Slavery is another issue entirely. This did have a big impact on history, and has an impact on game mechanics. I think they did a fairly decent job of handling slavery without actually using the slave word.

Ritual Sacrifice is another issue. A cultural boost seems strange. wouldn't a happiness boost be more appropiate. Well maybe not. It can't please the population too much to see their own sacrificed. Although maybe it would scare them into working harder, so maybe a production boost. Either way I don't think this practice was widespread enough to warrant use in a Civ game aside from scenarios such as mesoamerican.

But slavery is something that should be used in a civ game. I stand by that.

	04-05-2004 02:00									#14
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This is a game first and facts whatever they be are hind leg second. Yes slavery is handled tastefully, kudos to Firaxis, since I have no problem bashing them. Ritual Sacrifice needs to have a 'reverse culture' tag attached to it. So a least players following this course will be sure to wreck their empire, which is historically accurate.

Additionally, raising cities needs a serious re-visit. Modified at least in steps, with conditions and mostly an editor off choice coupled with a very strong Empire wide cultural hit for every city raised whether ones own or someone elses.

Maybe this tasteless thread will yet bear some useful fruit.....

	04-05-2004 04:46									#15
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Technically, like all other 'culture' in Civ, 'Nazi culture' would only be culture to them and no-one else. Still, the whole idea of the scenario, good in use of the technical aspects of C3C as it is...maybe hits a bit TOO close to home, at least as a scenario...

	04-05-2004 06:38									#16
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If you want something a little less offensive, and probably more realistic, how about an SS unit with the enslave ability? Defeated units would be converted into workers. The workers could be used as slaves, or sacrificed for shields (as they can in the epic game). This would be much less offensive than having a "Jew" unit.

	05-05-2004 06:27									#17
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quote: Originally posted by TheArsenal Well the complete utter ruthless bad taste of this idea aside, one would successfully argue that the Nazi cleansing actually deprived them of a significant portion of a rich and deep internal culture (as well as a semblance of humanity). Thus gaining culture from such a move makes no sense. The fact that this is being considered makes less. edit: the comma splice.

Gameplay-wise, it's effect is to actually force the Nazi player to do this in order to close culture gaps between cities left by conquest - hindering the player.

	05-05-2004 06:30									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Xorbon If you want something a little less offensive, and probably more realistic, how about an SS unit with the enslave ability? Defeated units would be converted into workers. The workers could be used as slaves, or sacrificed for shields (as they can in the epic game). This would be much less offensive than having a "Jew" unit.

It probably wouldn't be called "Jew"

btw, this was only a half-serious suggestion; it just came to mind while I was thinking about the editor, so I posted it. I personally don't plan on using it (as I don't plan on making a WWII scenario in the first place).

Wrt it being disgusting and "this thread should be deleted", all I have is - should war be taken out of the game too?

	05-05-2004 09:05									#19
	Re: I just had a rather sick idea for a WWII scenario... Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by Kucinich You know the sacrifice thing in the Mesoamerica Conquest? Have Nazi units have a chance of enslaving to a Jew unit, which can be sacrificed for "culture". Is necessary to fill in the culture gaps left by conquest (since the Nazi's would be under Fascism, rushing a temple wouldn't work).

If you really want to be realistic the Nazis should LOSE culture when they sacrifice. I can't believe this thread is still open.

	05-05-2004 09:52									#20
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Well, Kucinich, why then don't we just cook up a fast game of genocide, gee there are lots of handy examples throughout our human history, and why stop with 'ritual sacrifice' when we could get culture points for torture chambers and the like?

Maybe my tastes are little funny, however for a game this is not what I want to simulate. However, it is also well noted 'war mongering' without honor or rules is also good company with some of the above, but please can we not keep it 'abstract' and at least 'pretend' to a little nobility in our thinking.

I feel some hypocrisy with 'war gaming' except there is no blood and agony of merit and play is just like chess! An exercise of mind. However, ideas count and certainly have impact when it comes to genocide or fostering any feeling of condoning it.

	05-05-2004 11:42									#21
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Well, considering that there were several threads with several hundred posts each in the C3C Beta testing forum arguing about whether a friggin' RAISED HAND was too explicit a symbol of the Nazi party for the Fascism tech and government icon, you can probably imagine how people would respond to a game mechanic that had you SACRIFICE JEWS if playing as the Nazis...

So yeah... utterly tasteless and I doubt people would respond very well to it...

	05-05-2004 17:20									#22
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imo i dont agree with the principle of killing the "jews" to raise culture. its historically incorrect. the killing of the jews was never widlely known to majority of germans at the time. so i cant see how culture can be increased by the realtively unknown (at the time they took place) of mass murder.

however u cant lambaste Kucinich for raising this. PC has to draw the line somewhere. it was an historical event. any scenario for WW2 would be historically incorrect if this feature wasnt included.

indeed one could argue that the very acts of the holocost could have contributed to germany losing the war. think of lost reasorces and the military that was required to perform it could have been sent to the field instaed.

the cause of the holocaust was one mans insanity. certainly the current game engine cant handle correctly the effects of this act.

comparing it to the aztecs is not applicable imo. there was a religious need according to the aztec religion. and as temples, cathedrals ect show, religion is a tool to be used.

imo to implement the holocaust could u have plague like effects on all "german" cities (to reduce population) and and mabey increase unit costs to repersent the unseen units adminersteing the holocaust? and as a benifit to the "germans", mabey permanaent mobalization?

i dont know.
as civ players though we are far worse than hitler, he has an excuse (madness), we do all our genocide, mass starvation, scorched earth policies without a thought.

the world is and was and (probably) always will be a BAD place, as players we are encourged to be BAD for the benifits it brings to our CIV, historically this has generally proven to be correct. not in hitlers case thank god.

	05-05-2004 20:27									#23
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Historically incorrect or historically incomplete? Also, I'd limit that to European WWII scenarios.

We're all hooked on a game that rewards being a psychotic bastard and thuggery, and I wouldn't have it any other way.

Somehow, I think Kucinich knew before he posted how tasteless it was (as evidenced by the thread title), and was just "thinking in print", so to speak. Keep the ideas coming and we'll all weed through the ones that need to be discarded.

	06-05-2004 05:38									#24
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I'm with Solomonwi here... it was an idea, and characterized as such, in line with the historical nature of the game.

There are certainly games that glorify the base nature of the human species; Grand Theft Auto comes to mind.

But Civ is about understanding, and playing, the vast sweep of human history... and we would not be honest, nor complete, not to address the bad alongside the good.

The Holocaust is a tough one, sure, but heck, I'm Jewish myself, and I wouldn't want to play out a really detailed scenario of WW2, across ALL of its aspects, without the bad parts.

Good for you, Kucinich... keep thinking!

	06-05-2004 09:10									#25
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quote: Originally posted by Theseus But Civ is about understanding, and playing, the vast sweep of human history... and we would not be honest, nor complete, not to address the bad alongside the good.

	07-05-2004 19:52									#26
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I find it odd that a lot of people request/demand the closure of this thread. and a lot of americans specifically. I thought freedom of speach was one of your most valued ideals...
And just because its horrible, bad taste or politically incorrect doesnt mean it shouldnt be talked about, rather on the contrary. whenever something becomes taboo we lose the possibility of working it out.
"Those who dont learn from history are doomed to repeat it".

Back to game functions, if this was to be implemented, the political discussion aside, there could be jewish "worker" units located in cities around europe that cant be used by the nazis for any other purpose than "sacrificing", which they would need a special "improvement" or something to do. each sacrifice would give a trade and production bonus (confiscated property and slave labor). other civs would benefit from these in extra trade or something. There could be a separate victory condition for the allies, such and such a number of jews have to survive in order for it to be a decisive victory.

	07-05-2004 20:36									#27
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The problem with simulating the Holocaust is that unless it benefited the 3rd Reich, players would avoid it, whereas in actuality it was carried out against the material interests of the Nazi state. How do you motivate players to act irrationally? Indoctrinating them to hate virtual Jews doesn't seem like a workable idea.

	07-05-2004 23:33									#28
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This is an interesting thread but the history in question is too recent (a mere 60 years ago) to be palatable. Its a bit like suggesting an Arab suicide bomber unit be added.

	08-05-2004 00:50									#29
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quote: Originally posted by TheArsenal Well the complete utter ruthless bad taste of this idea aside, one would successfully argue that the Nazi cleansing actually deprived them of a significant portion of a rich and deep internal culture (as well as a semblance of humanity). Thus gaining culture from such a move makes no sense. The fact that this is being considered makes less. edit: the comma splice.

No, exterminating Jews (and anything else they didn't like or was in the way) enhanced the Nazi culture. So it makes a very sick sort of sense.

I still wouldn't want to make (or play) this scenario, unless it was on the other side.

I'd rather see something like a Battle of the Atlantic campaign where you use the treasure-type units and move them across the Atlantic to somewhere in England to represent all the supplies sent from the USA and Canada to the UK. In the way: the German's small surface fleet and a whole lot of U-Boats. The sticking point is that in order to move treasure units, they have to be grabbed by another unit. Maybe make a bunch of "truck" or "cargo bin" units or something?

	08-05-2004 04:41									#30
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Alpha Centauri's supply crawlers come to mind