04-05-2004 15:52									#31
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten Try "Celts should be able to kill all other Europeans". Might hit a little closer to home for all the Eurocom Israel-haters...

Wow, I'm a Israel-hater now

Well, it's no surprise, since Americans usually believe that anybody who dares thinking Israel is making terrible mistakes only furthering war and hatred is a "Israel-hater" (I'm surprised I haven't been called an antisemite yet).

There is a reason I mentioned adult settlers. And that's because these people have chosen to move in a settlement that is not their home. And they have chosen to move in a harsh environment, in harsh economic conditions, for their political beliefs of Eretz Israel. I'm not talking about the "old" settlements around Jerusalem that are becoming more ordinary cities. I am not talking about those many Israelis who were born in Israel, who have always lived there, and for whom it is their country without a doubt. I am talking about the villages in Gaza and West Bank, in the heart of a territory full of Palestinians.

Yes, I think these people are valid targets for the Palestinians, just like European settlers in America were valid targets for the natives who saw their land stolen, just like Celt settlers in Europe were valid targets for those they had just pushed back, etc. Settlement is a common strategy of conquest, and I fail to see what makes it OK to kill invading soldiers, while it is not OK to kill invading settlers.
Especially in a context such as Israel, where soldiers are drafted, while settlers are willing to even commit sacrifices for their cause.
Again, this does not apply to children, or to people who grew up in these settlements.

	04-05-2004 15:54									#32
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I believe calling the terrorists who did that animals is an insult to real animals.

	04-05-2004 16:00									#33
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Yes, I think these people are valid targets for the Palestinians, just like European settlers in America were valid targets for the natives who saw their land stolen, just like Celt settlers in Europe were valid targets for those they had just pushed back, etc. Settlement is a common strategy of conquest, and I fail to see what makes it OK to kill invading soldiers, while it is not OK to kill invading settlers. Especially in a context such as Israel, where soldiers are drafted, while settlers are willing to even commit sacrifices for their cause. Again, this does not apply to children, or to people who grew up in these settlements.

This is what makes you a sick ****. This is what makes your eye-rolling crap so gut-wrenchingly disgusting. The fact that you think abstract political concepts are worth murdering over, shows conclusively, that the idea of an enlightened Europe superior to America, is a fabrication.

	04-05-2004 16:01									#34
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And Ming is sleeping

	04-05-2004 16:02									#35
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If US and UK families now start migrating to Iraq and settling there it would be daft to describe them as peaceful people looking for a better future for their children.

Where settlers follow invaders it means the invading power is annexing the territory.

Which those who have been invaded resent.

Which does not mean that it is OK to respond to provocation so hideously. It is not. But to deny that the Palestinians have been provoked, or that the settlers and the various Israeli governments do not know that it is provocative is just silly.

	04-05-2004 16:04									#36
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I'm in complete agreement with Felch. It's no wonder Americans and Europeans don't see eye-to-eye when Euros can casually justify the cold-blooded murder of unarmed civilians (especially if they're Israeli).

	04-05-2004 16:04									#37
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten How didn't you defend this? The first thing you did in this thread was start spouting off justifcations for shooting these kids in the head...

You chose it to read it this way.

The first thing I posted in this thread was a reminder that the article got all emotional on one side, and completley stone-hearted on the other one.

I wonder how you had felt, if I had posted an article from some Arab news source, displaying the family and detailing the funeral of some child killed in an Israeli attack. And that ended in "Palestinian patriots have attacked an Israeli settlement in retaliation, killing five."

	04-05-2004 16:05									#38
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Just so we're clear on what murder is: Murder is when you intend to kill someone who is defenseless and actually kill them. Manslaughter, what the Israelis are guilty of with the Palestinian civilians, is killing without intending to kill, and self-defense is when you kill someone who is a threat to your life.

It is okay for soldiers to kill each other because that is self-defense. Either soldier A kills soldier B or soldier B kills soldier A. Survival requires killing your opponent. Killing settlers is wrong because your survival does not rely on killing them. Either the settler dies or no one dies -- there is a peaceful resolution in that instance. That is why it is wrong to kill settlers, but it is acceptable to kill soldiers.

	04-05-2004 16:09									#39
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quote: Originally posted by East Street Trader If US and UK families now start migrating to Iraq and settling there it would be daft to describe them as peaceful people looking for a better future for their children.

Utter bullshit. Americans, Australians, New Zealanders, white South Africans, Indian South Africans, Indians in Fiji -- all these groups followed conquest. They all moved because they sought a better life (Or in Georgia and Australia were convicts, but those were a small number of migrants). And most were peaceful people.

This is a natural part of human movement across the globe. It is not a reason to kill defenseless people. Politics should not be used by moral people to justify murder.

	04-05-2004 16:10									#40
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Hmmm. Law not your strong suit then, Felch.

	04-05-2004 16:10									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Felch This is what makes you a sick ****. This is what makes your eye-rolling crap so gut-wrenchingly disgusting. The fact that you think abstract political concepts are worth murdering over, shows conclusively, that the idea of an enlightened Europe superior to America, is a fabrication.

I think war is worth killing over, when it's declared. That's the point of war, isn't it? You can believe that settlers want the good of their families all you want, but that doesn't make it true.

Yes, some settlements in the west bank look like real cities, where you can want to install your family for its well-being. But the settlements I'm talking about, the ones that stir most trouble, have nothing to do with providing welfare to your family. They have everything to do with agreeing with the conquest, and actively participating in it.

Had this attack happened in Jerusalem, Tel Aviv, Haifa, or whatever actual Israeli city full of civilians minidng their own business, I'd have been posting about the barbary of the action. And yes, this action is barbaric, and 4 innocent children died of it; this is why I find this attack undefendable.

But yes, I assimilate the mother to nothing else than a voluntary soldier.

	04-05-2004 16:12									#42
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quote: Originally posted by East Street Trader Hmmm. Law not your strong suit then, Felch.

I never claimed it. But these are worthwhile definitions. If you can fix them, feel free. But if you just want to make snide comments, then feel free to do so to yourself.

	04-05-2004 16:12									#43
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I am retreating for this flame fest.

just some facts:

the vast majority of Israeli settlers live in towns with 1000 people or more. So did this woman.

	04-05-2004 16:12									#44
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quote: But yes, I assimilate the mother to nothing else than a voluntary soldier.

What about her unborn child? Did it deserve to die, too?

	04-05-2004 16:17									#45
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor But yes, I assimilate the mother to nothing else than a voluntary soldier.

Then when I say that non-violent Iraqis who cooperate with the resistance are the equivalents of soldiers, you won't argue? And Palestinians who allow weapons to be stored in their homes, or even celebrate after attacks, should be treated as combatants? And for the Americans or Israelis to kill these people for what they believe and express is acceptable?

Certainly we should be able to agree that taking your logic to its end (people should be killed for what they express and believe rather than as a last resort to preserve one's own life) is not a moral step forward, but rather a savage and inhumane way of thinking.

	04-05-2004 16:17									#46
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten What about her unborn child? Did it deserve to die, too?

Nope.
Just like the children of an Israeli soldier don't deserve to become orphans. Yep, it is war and it is ugly. This is the reason why I oppose war.

I am amazed the Yanks here pretend to be so enlightened, when they actively support the conditions that lead to a bloodbath of civlians and soldiers. And I am the obscurantist when I tell that there is a price to war, and this is the death of your enemies just like of your loved ones.

	04-05-2004 16:21									#47
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor I am amazed the Yanks here pretend to be so enlightened, when they actively support the conditions that lead to a bloodbath of civlians and soldiers. And I am the obscurantist when I tell that there is a price to war, and this is the death of your enemies just like of your loved ones.

Yanks are enlightened. We created an environment where Muslims and Jews can live harmoniously without killing each other. Bigots don't desecrate our graveyards with Nazi slogans. We don't prohibit minority religions from waring their headgear. We make mistakes, but we do have a moral compass.

	04-05-2004 16:24									#48
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I think it's less about us Yanks being enlightened and more about us having souls...

	04-05-2004 16:25									#49
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quote: Originally posted by Felch Then when I say that non-violent Iraqis who cooperate with the resistance are the equivalents of soldiers, you won't argue? And Palestinians who allow weapons to be stored in their homes, or even celebrate after attacks, should be treated as combatants?

Save for those who celebrate after attacks, these people should be treated as active collaborators indeed. When you wage war, you don't pick flowers.

quote: Certainly we should be able to agree that taking your logic to its end (people should be killed for what they express and believe rather than as a last resort to preserve one's own life)

These people are not merely believing in something. They are actually conquering a territory for the sake of their beliefs. That's a whole heap of difference. As much as I oppose settlerism, I don't think the advocates of settlerism are valid targets if they don't go there themselves. Those who actually do the conquest, however, are a different story.

quote: is not a moral step forward, but rather a savage and inhumane way of thinking.

War is inhumane. When you wage a war, when you enter a war zone, when you bring your children to a war zone, you should not expect any humanity.

	04-05-2004 16:28									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor War is inhumane. When you wage a war, when you enter a war zone, when you bring your children to a war zone, you should not expect any humanity.

Congratulations, you have been baited into giving a damning quote that I will throw in your face next time you criticize an American or Israeli attack that kills civilians. Expecially children.

Thank you for your cooperation.

	04-05-2004 16:30									#51
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor I am amazed the Yanks here pretend to be so enlightened, when they actively support the conditions that lead to a bloodbath of civlians and soldiers. And I am the obscurantist when I tell that there is a price to war, and this is the death of your enemies just like of your loved ones.

Why are you amazed. I don't like Iraqi civilians dieing anymore than Israeli ones. If an American soldiers pointed their weapons at a pregnant iraqi woman and her daughters and slaughtered them then there would the same amount of outrage. You got so upset about iraqi deaths as of late yet seem to have hardened up to the death of Israelies. But thankfully for you, you can put the isreali women in the "volentary soldier" catagory.

	04-05-2004 16:38									#52
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All I have to say about this is that, first of all, I don't think this has ANYTHING to do with resistance. Second, as long as there are people who commit such atrocities, and as long as there are other people who celebrate them as "heroic", they will never know peace and they will certainly NEVER have their own state. Third, I'm almost okay with that. If they can't do better than this, then they don't deserve any better. I'm just sorry that we can't separate these bastards from all the "ordinary" people in the region.

Lastly, I know that people on the other side have done wrong as well, but that doesn't change any of the above as far as I'm concerned. Any argument concerning whether or not the settlers had a right to be there is also irrelevant in my opinion. Stuff like this will just never be okay as far as I'm concerned, and so anyone who does things like this will never be anything other than a terrorist and a murderer in my book.

	04-05-2004 16:39									#53
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quote: Originally posted by Sprayber Why are you amazed. I don't like Iraqi civilians dieing anymore than Israeli ones. If an American soldiers pointed their weapons at a pregnant iraqi woman and her daughters and slaughtered them then there would the same amount of outrage. You got so upset about iraqi deaths as of late yet seem to have hardened up to the death of Israelies. But thankfully for you, you can put the isreali women in the "volentary soldier" catagory.

quote: Originally posted by Sprayber Does it ****ing matter the body count in either. I mean really, Dont get all high and mighty towards me. I dont give a **** if you like bush or not. Im finding it hard to care how many iraqies are dying when most of the people only care that they are dying while americans are around. no one gave a **** when they were dying from Iraqie bullets. Of course that was somehow our fault too. So i dont give a damn. I care about the people around me. I care about Oerdin. I care about the people I know that are there now and the people that will be there when and if I go. So put the morality bs on someone else. Like I said, my give a fvck is broken. It only works for a select few at the moment........

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...692#post2910692

	04-05-2004 16:39									#54
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quote: Originally posted by Felch Congratulations, you have been baited into giving a damning quote that I will throw in your face next time you criticize an American or Israeli attack that kills civilians. Expecially children.

I don't remember having criticized the US or Israel for reacting to attacks when attacked in a crowded area (I pinpointed the PR damage though). War is ugly. That's why we should strive to avoid it.

Sparyber:

quote: But thankfully for you, you can put the isreali women in the "volentary soldier" catagory.

Was the plural intentional, or a typo? I don't consider ordinary Israeli civilians to be combatant at all. At the contrary, Israel is a country that has every reason to continue to exist, and its civilians have every reason to continue living there, in peace and safety at last.

My comments were directed at this kind of adult settlers. Certainly not at the Israeli population in general.

	04-05-2004 16:45									#55
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quote: Originally posted by Sir Ralph http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...692#post2910692

And Ive stayed up many nights wondering about that


On second thought, what i said was pretty accurate. You have some folks trying to work their way around their death as if its logical while the iraqi deaths are considered so much more horrible.

	04-05-2004 16:48									#56
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor I don't remember having criticized the US or Israel for reacting to attacks when attacked in a crowded area (I pinpointed the PR damage though). War is ugly. That's why we should strive to avoid it. Sparyber: quote: But thankfully for you, you can put the isreali women in the "volentary soldier" catagory. Was the plural intentional, or a typo? I don't consider ordinary Israeli civilians to be combatant at all. At the contrary, Israel is a country that has every reason to continue to exist, and its civilians have every reason to continue living there, in peace and safety at last. My comments were directed at this kind of adult settlers. Certainly not at the Israeli population in general.

Typo.. sorry...

If it had been me, I would not have had my daughters and wife in such a place to begin with. So in that aspect I may agree with you somewhat.

	04-05-2004 17:01									#57
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quote: Originally posted by Sprayber Typo.. sorry...

No problem

BTW, My comment about the validity of settlers as targets was originally a side-comment (my original point was the bias of the article). True, it would have been easier to make this comment in other threads, which wouldn't have shown such a barbarous action. True, it would also have been easier to let somebody else do the flamewar; it's not like I am alone on 'Poly thinking the settlers are voluntarily worsening the situation and humiliating Arabs, for the sake of Eretz Israel.

I insist that I do not defend the barbarous attack that has been made on this family. Innocent children have died in this. Unarmed people have been killed, and there's no telling whether the attackers could have chosen a "softer" pressure, like abduction. And had this happened anywhere else than in a settlement, I wouldn't have been called a "Israel-hater" (I would still argue on the bias of the paper though).

	04-05-2004 17:19									#58
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Do you think that all the million of French settlers in Algiers were valid targets?

	04-05-2004 17:21									#59
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quote: Originally posted by Felch quote: Originally posted by Spiffor War is inhumane. When you wage a war, when you enter a war zone, when you bring your children to a war zone, you should not expect any humanity. Congratulations, you have been baited into giving a damning quote that I will throw in your face next time you criticize an American or Israeli attack that kills civilians. Expecially children. Thank you for your cooperation.

1. I do not agree with Spiffor.

2. The difference that Spiffor is trying to make (or so I think) is that the woman entered a war-zone. This act can be viewed as aggressive, though only in principle. The difference to Iraqi and Palestinian civilians is that the war is brought to them, to their homes. The same applies to civilians in Israel itself, of course.

3.

quote: I think it's less about us Yanks being enlightened and more about us having souls...

... which you sold to the devil, Mr. Bush.

	04-05-2004 17:34									#60
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel Do you think that all the million of French settlers in Algiers were valid targets?

Nope, because most of them have lived in Algiers all their life (and this is a very important difference to me, as it is to them, who have been cast from their home to metropolitan France after the independence). However, I think that early colonists who followed the military conquests would have been as valid targets for a local resistance as the French soldiers.