09-05-2004 11:03									#1
	Issues for 600 AD: Whether to Hide the Iron Cut and Whether to Attack Partemunde Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

There are two issues covered in the following chatlogs.

1) Should we attempt to cut our iron and use lots of workers to rebuild the roads and mines on the same turn so that GWT does not see that our iron has been cut? Such a thing would require a lot of workers. As it turns out (from the discussion), more workers than we have available within the current planning period. E_T wants to do it anyway with the some workers and hope that GWT does not notice.

Arnelos, Trip, and Master Zen all agree that this would not only be pointless because we believe GWT would notice, but could be more damaging to us when GWT notices our attempts to hide it than simply cutting the iron without any attempt to hide the fact. The reasoning is that when GWT notices that we're attempting to HIDE that we're cutting iron, it's going to fuel speculation over there about why a hell of a lot more than simply cutting it will.

As I stated, if we actually COULD be sure that we could hide it, it would be worth it. Unfortunately, we can't. It's not worth trying to hide it and being caught. The decision of the Consuls right now is therefore that we will NOT be attempting to hide the cutting of our iron. Our workers will do other, more productive, things with their time.

2) E_T has a plan that you can find HERE for sending a small force of knights to attack Partemunde. The force would launch off a point near Remembrance 3 turns before Navigation and hope to find available sea tiles to keep them safe while making the ocean transit for 3 turns until we get Navigation. They will then proceed to their LZ. The timing of the strikes is such that on D-Turn, our Ruhrpott force will land, on D+1, CFC will land, on D+2, the Partemunde strike will land. The idea E_T has is that the timing fo the Ruhrpott and CFC landings will distract whatever GWT forces are available to head toward those locations and perhaps leave Partemunde undefended. We will then land ~6 knights knights right next to Partemunde in a gambit to destroy the city and then IMMEDIATELY pull the units out and run back to ocean (and take the units home).

Trip is strongly against this plan. Arnelos and Master Zen do not believe that sending our ships out into the ocean for 3 turns on the HOPE that we can find sea tiles they can traverse for three turns until we get Navigation is wise. Arnelos wonders whether such a strike is still feasible if it were delayed the 3 turns until we got Navigation. If so, where would GWT's forces from the south be and could we still take out Partemunde without GWT southern forces interfering (I imagine not). If not, Arnelos believes that the attack is not worth making and we should keep these knights with the main force moving on Ruhrpott.

As for Trip, he has acknowledged that while his initial plan was to only hit Ruhrpott itself, he is willing to consider taking out other cities in the area and staying around, depending on the situation by the time we make our landing. Much will depend on where GWT's main Ansar stack is burried in CGN's territory (if it still is) on the turn of our landing and thus how long it would take to reach us. If the GWT Ansar stack is far enough away, that gives us more time to raze and pillage before we have to evacuate our force.

----

As for the actual discussion, it is broken into three parts. The first is the log of the chat in #apolytonisdg between Arnelos, Trip, Master Zen, and E_T, along with Kloreep at one point.

The second part is the chat started between the Consuls, thus only including Arnelos, Trip, and Master Zen.

the third part is a chat started by E_T with only Arnelos and Master Zen.

I'm disclosing these because I think it would be productive for the members of the team to know that these issues are being discussed and to give the team time to comment on them in the short period before the next save is played. If there is enough discussion of especially Issue #2 I cited above (the possibility of a seperate Partemunde gambit), we may wish to re-poll that issue as I raised in chat.

I would encourage members of the team to please read and comment on these issues. Additional heads thinking about and providing their expertise on this would be greatly appreciated... hell, that's the whole reason this is the Apolyton TEAM, afterall.

Thanks, guys.

Logs to follow...

Last edited by Arnelos on 09-05-2004 at 11:12

	09-05-2004 11:06									#2
	Inflate your Upload Space

Discussion in #apolytonisdg (while it lasted):

PART 1 of 2

quote: E_T_working_on_orders> as a matter of fact, i've looked at it and we WILL be able to do it stealth fashion Arnelos> oh? Trip> :P Arnelos> I'm very interested in that Trip> you see the problem about that... Trip> is that we have 6 irons Trip> a number of them will have improvements on them but no Roads Trip> IS THAT NOT SUSPICIOUS ENOUGH? :P Arnelos> who would have ever thought that would actually be something that haunted us? :chuckle: Trip> if GWT is attentive enough to even be checking that sort of thing something as supicious as that will CERTAINLY grab their attention E_T_working_on_orders> yes, when I was setting up the worker orders, after doing some of the figuring as WHEN we would need the Iron cut and then looked at what I could pull off other taskes to make it work Arnelosg> 4Trip - unless they literally go checking on tiles to see if what they see is accurate, GWT will not be receiving up-to-date maps of our territory... as long as they see that they cannot offer us iron in the diplo window, will they even notice? * Kloreep has joined #apolytonisdg * ChanServ sets mode: +o Kloreep Trip> if GWT and GCA are trading maps every turn (very likely, Bongo knows how this works), then they will automatically get updated info Arnelos> ah Arnelos> that blows E_T_working_on_orders> AND, with the stealth Iron trick, the only indication is 1 turn lack of a Mine at that spot Trip> what I'm THINKING E_T is talking about is cutting iron every turn and then rebuilding it every turn Trip> so that there there appears to be a road there every turn Trip> using up 6 Workers Trip> at least, that's what he was talking about earlier E_T_working_on_orders> Not every turn, doesn;t need to be every turn, just atleast everyother Arnelos> that's insane Trip> there is no mine at that tile, but a road always appears Trip> BUT Trip> all the other irons have no roads Trip> but DO have mines Trip> and if GWT sees that Trip> they'll know something is up anyways Trip> so what's the point? E_T_working_on_orders> Trip, the less that GWT had to worry about us, the better that this plan will work, right? Arnelos> I think we worry too much about what GWT thinks Arnelos> they're going to have to suspect we're paranoid Arnelos> we see CGN going down... hard E_T_working_on_orders> they just got Leo's.... Trip> E_T, the fact is that something like that won't even MATTER... they'll see the other mines with no roads and eventually assume what we're doing Arnelos> the largest problem we will have is not iron, it's the friggin' 4POWERGRAPH! Trip> it's not as though just because they see a single road they're going to assume that, when all of our other irons are so explicitly cut Trip> hehe E_T_working_on_orders> and that's all we need, is just a few turns to keep them comfortable Trip> we are greater than GWT in power now Arnelos> yes, I know Arnelos> and they will see it continue to rise Arnelos> no amount of doing screwy things with our iron will erase that E_T_working_on_orders> and we only upgrade units that we need to upgrade, depending on the logistical situation Trip> E_T: but is it worth typing up 6 Workers for so long? That's a LOT of jungle that could be cut just to POSSIBLY deter GWT's thinking Arnelos> Trip - likely not Trip> that's the thing Trip> 6 Workers are constantly tied up Trip> building a road every turn after a unit cuts it E_T_working_on_orders> well, as it takes 2 workers, 6 turns to clear 1 tile, plus 1 turn to move and 1 turn to road, and we jump off in 11 turns? Arnelos> they're going to have to notice that we haven't bothered to mine the tiles Arnelos> I'm really not finding this project to be realistic Trip> especially as it has to be either the Dominus iron or the Tripoli iron Trip> both core cities that could really use a production bonus Arnelos> yes, they're going to HAVE to notice that they haven't been mined Trip> no hill but a road REEKS of cutting iron Trip> we saw that with GWT numerous times, even if they were trying to hide it Trip> plus... Trip> they can see the hill now Trip> WITH A MINE Trip> what happens when they see it later Trip> WITHOUT A MINE? E_T_working_on_orders> If they even see it E_T_working_on_orders> If they are even looking * Arnelos slaps MasterZen around with Emperor Nero's fiddle! * Arnelos slaps MasterZen around with Emperor Nero's fiddle! * Arnelos slaps MasterZen around with Emperor Nero's fiddle! E_T_working_on_orders> If my aunt had balls, she would be my uncle Trip> if they're NOT LOOKING then why would we BOTHER? :P E_T_working_on_orders> Because, Not having Iron WOULD show up in diplo screen Kloreep> Unless they have their iron cut too Trip> which they do, at the moment E_T_working_on_orders> IF they even have their Iron connected that thun Kloreep> We can't count on it staying that way, of course Trip> if they're going to bother checking something like that then chances are they'll check the map... Kloreep> But for now, they couldn't tell E_T_working_on_orders> No, not for 11 turns Trip> one is not more difficult than the other Trip> it's not as though checking the map is any harder than checking the diplo screen E_T_working_on_orders> one is easy, other isn't E_T_working_on_orders> EVEN if they have a current map Trip> :\ Arnelos> I don't think we can rely on them not checking the map Trip> even if you assume GWT doesn't know what they're doing Arnelos> if we really want to mask our iron being cut, we have to rebuild that damn mine each turn E_T_working_on_orders> how many times have we and CFC forgotten to send each other maps? Trip> Bongo, an Apolyton member familiar with these tactics Trip> is on their team Arnelos> or at least each turn it would be necessary E_T_working_on_orders> Arnie, even THAT would take too many workers Arnelos> 4Arnelos_mapmaking> I don't think we can rely on them not checking the map, if we really want to mask our iron being cut, we have to rebuild that damn mine each turn, or at least each turn it would be necessary Trip> the biggest problem I have with this is really not the wasted Worker turns, though that is a concern Trip> my biggest problem is that in order for it to work we have to assume GWT is already TOO STUPID to notice something else E_T_working_on_orders> Well, trip, then way are we even doing all of this? Trip> doing all of what? Trip> we're assuming they care enough to check the diplo screen but don't care enough to check the map Trip> which is a flaw, IMO E_T_working_on_orders> if their that Freaking smart, then we don't have a frigging chance in hell of pulling this off Arnelos> E_T - yes we do * Beta has joined #ApolytonISDG MasterZen> lol * E_T_working_on_orders sets mode: +o Beta Arnelos> I happen to think they're smart enough to be checking our map every turn MasterZen> I happen to think we should always plan for the worst Arnelos> however, I don't think that necessarily means they're going to defend their core with 40 Ansar Warriors while fighting a war in the south Trip> no matter how smart they are they only have limited resources, and putting them in reserve to protect Ruhrpott is not feasible for them MasterZen> i.e. assume that your opponent shows a certain level of knowledge based on past experience E_T_working_on_orders> well, people are human, and they do make mistakes and they do let things get by E_T_working_on_orders> I'm counting on that MasterZen> obviously checking the map is highly consitent with GWT's skills MasterZen> E_T you can't base a plan on someone making a mistake Arnelos> MZ - agreed Trip> or Bongo at the very least E_T_working_on_orders> Hey, if anything, the rumors of a cold war with CFC would work good with that, too MasterZen> because if they DON'T make a mistake, we're screwed Arnelos> I doubt such rumors would be believable MasterZen> yeah Arnelos> more likely to raise suspicions Trip> at the moment all three consuls agree on this issue, so I wouldn't plan on coungting on it E_T Arnelos> Trip - well, MZ and I are willing to be convinced Trip> I'm glad you're able to speak for MZ Trip> and for me as well, it seems Arnelos> that said, I'm currently against it. I simply don't see it being worth it E_T_working_on_orders> well, then, we either go and cut Iron openly, and announce to everyone who has it, that we are on a major buildup, or we try to keep it as quite as possible Arnelos> E_T - we don't need to ANNOUNCE it Arnelos> they'll notice on their own. We just keep our damn mouths shut E_T_working_on_orders> and basically for only 6 turns Arnelos> point is, the less hay we make over this, the better E_T_working_on_orders> what would that tell you? Arnelos> E_T - if we *say* that the purpose is to fight CFC, they're going to suspect that it is *not* Arnelos> if we say *nothing*, that idea will at least exist _T_working_on_orders> well, then we don't say anything MasterZen> that's the point, why do we have to say anything? Trip> the information is already there for them to find, the best we're doing is draping a sheet over our big artillery piece MasterZen> yey, we cut our iron... whoopedy doo Arnelos> precisely Arnelos> cutting our iron may not necessarily mean all that much MasterZen> F3 screen will likely remain unchanged so big deal MasterZen> it's not like suddenly we'll have 40 knights and end up "average" to them E_T_working_on_orders> well, maybe that sheet is camo colored and they won't notice it, with all of the jungle... * conmcb25 is now known as conmcb25_away E_T_working_on_orders> and we have been growing on the powergraph as it is MasterZen> yes... CITIES MasterZen> again, they know civ quite well to understand that, I for one KNOW that ND knows about this Trip> our powergraph isn't going to go up that much until we upgrade all of our Knights, Muskets and Caravels E_T_working_on_orders> and pop, so that is also hiding that build up Arnelos> MZ - a very good point E_T_working_on_orders> so, the only thing to try to keep it hidden, is the stealth Iron Gambit * Beta has quit IRC (Quit: ) Arnelos> E_T - which would require rebuilding the mine as well as the road Trip> but it's still not hidden! Trip> they can find out anyways! E_T_working_on_orders> Hey, Arnie, I HAVE to have that Iron, for building purposes for this Arnelos> look, if we're really looking at rebuilding all tiles to look EXACTLY THE SAME every single turn, then this plan has merit E_T_working_on_orders> need 2 to 3 turn horses from Tripoli Trip> so we keep building Horses until we're ready to upgrade all of them Trip> we cut it, rebuild the mine and move on E_T_working_on_orders> some will be upgrade before had, but only ones that will be at sea when we get Nav E_T_working_on_orders> so, until that timing is all worked out, it;s better to have that Iron available, every turn, for upgrades and movements E_T_working_on_orders> and we ONLY need that Iron cut to set the build to a Horse, after than, it can be reconnected E_T_working_on_orders> as long as we don;t get a tech during that time, we are o.k.

	09-05-2004 11:07									#3
	Put an end to popups!

chat in #apolytonisdg:

PART 2 of 2

quote: Trip> we only need to reconnect iron on turn 10 Trip> to be able to get everything ready to launch as soon as we get Nav E_T_working_on_orders> not entirely, but that's another kettle of fish Trip> and even if we only need to reconnect every couple/few turns the Workers are STILL required to stay there the entire time Arnelos> you know... part of the issue here is that I don't want to create the impression with GWT that we think we have something to hide. That's why only partially masking our iron cut and them noticing the partial masking would be so much more damning than just straight-out cutting the iron. Straight-out cutting means we don't think it matters. Trying to hide it means we have a reason to try to hide it. MasterZen> agreed completely Arnelos> I'm willing to entertain, however, the idea of COMPLETELY masking the iron cut... if that's possible, I'm interested Arnelos> yes, it would take an obscene number of workers... but that would actually totally obscure it MasterZen> agreed again Trip> they say not to underestimate your opponent Trip> I think that's what you're doing E_T Trip> you're assuming they're NOT going to check the map Trip> that's the entire crux of the plan Trip> if they DO then all that effort is wasted instantly Trip> that's a VERY big if Arnelos> how many workers and how much time would it take to obscure the iron cut and remining/reroading COMPLETELY? That's what I want to know... if it can be done, we should seriously consider it, as much as I cringe at spending that many worker turns on it E_T_working_on_orders> 6 E_T_working_on_orders> no, 9 Arnelos> keep in mind... we don't need to necessarily cut iron every turn... we can use prebuilds to engineer it to only cut every other turn or so E_T_working_on_orders> 3 for one turn road, 6 for 1 turn mine E_T_working_on_orders> I'm doing with 6 Arnelos> right, 9 total E_T_working_on_orders> one turn road and 2 turn mine, which is effectively 1 turn Arnelos> how many of those tiles are CURRENTLY mined? E_T_working_on_orders> all Arnelos> E_T 2 turn mine is effectively 1 turn mine but it doesn't show up until the next turn, right? When does that change take place? E_T_working_on_orders> and 2 with road, Tripoli and Cominus E_T_working_on_orders> *Dominus E_T_working_on_orders> begining of our turn, right after Diplo and trade calculations Arnelos> so GWT and GCA would notice Arnelos> because the mine would not be *complete* until our turn Arnelos> we'd need 9 workers for them not to notice E_T_working_on_orders> SO, if someone IS looking, the Mine would be there one turn, gone the next, rinse/repeat Arnelos> right Arnelos> we'd need 9 workers for them not to notice at all Arnelos> that's 9 workers each in two locations E_T_working_on_orders> and I can't get 9 workers over to do that Arnelos> which location is a problem? Arnelos> Tripoli? E_T_working_on_orders> yess Arnelos> hmm... Arnelos> cut is in 4 turns? how many workers CAN make it? E_T_working_on_orders> I can have the Iron unroaded at Dom, and still get trade from it E_T_working_on_orders> can't with Tripoli Arnelos> how many workers CAN reach Tripoli by the time of the cut? E_T_working_on_orders> 7 Arnelos> so we need 2 more... could we build them? E_T_working_on_orders> one is being built E_T_working_on_orders> Lux Arnelos> is there any way to delay the first cut and use prebuilds without delaying the attack? Arnelos> or perhaps have BigBend and even Banana do workers as well... other sacrifices? E_T_working_on_orders> Plus, I DO need those other 3 workers at other places E_T_working_on_orders> nope and nope Arnelos> other needs become secondary if we do this... I'm trying to assess the cost here Arnelos> so what you're telling me is that to have 9 workers at Tripoli, we'd need to delay the attack Trip> again Arnelos> ok, how many turns? Trip> what about all the other iron sources Trip> ? Trip> the ones with mines but no roads? Arnelos> Trip - those are ALREADY cut Arnelos> Trip - I'm thinking to just minimize the changes... they'll notice, think it's odd, but who knows what they'll think as long as nothing CHANGES from here on out Arnelos> if more things change, they're bound to take more interest Trip> the Dominus iron still needs to be cut Trip> that's another change E_T_working_on_orders> No, what I'm telling you, is that, I need to have the Iron cut in 4 turns, and the only workers I can get there AND be able to do anything, is 7 E_T_working_on_orders> brb, have to go do something Arnelos> E_T - what would be the price of waiting more than 4 turns? Trip> we wouldn't be able to start doing Horsemen yet Trip> cutting down the number of Knights we'll have Arnelos> or delaying the attack, as I said MasterZen> being blunt: MasterZen> either it works with the timeline alloted, or it doesn't MasterZen> I don't speak for the other 2, but I will NOT support a delay in the attack Arnelos> if we can't get a complete NON-CHANGE within the timeline alloted, I can't support it Arnelos> then again, if it were only a 1-turn delay? MasterZen> 1 turn, that's different MasterZen> definitely negotiable Arnelos> how many turns could you stomach? MasterZen> 2... maybe possibly MasterZen> 3... no way jose Trip> the timing depends on how the war is going Arnelos> yes Trip> but we won't know how much time we have until later Trip> so wasting time now may be our undoing Arnelos> every turn of delay gives more time for GWT to send their Ansar home Trip> cause there's no way to get it back later MasterZen> and 1 turn = 9 tiles of movement Trip> sooner = better MasterZen> 3 turns = 27 Trip> yes Trip> 27 tiles is from Sudspitze to Ruhrpott Arnelos> well, this is one of the reasons why I *like* E-T's idea of a CFC landing to cut the road Arnelos> that might give us an extra turn or 2 Trip> and GWT an extra Leader or two :P Arnelos> true, true Trip> a straight-up fight with their main army full of elites against exposed CFC forces... Trip> it's clear there's not many strategists in here Arnelos> the other thing I agree with E_T on is the desirability of taking out Partemunde Arnelos> the problem is numbers Trip> well Arnelos> can we afford to split our stacks like that? Trip> the poll is conclusive and it's closed Arnelos> would we still WIN? Arnelos> Trip - that's an issue we could re-visit in my opinion... a lot of people have been arguiing the contrary case since that poll was conducted Trip> 16% of voters support going after Parthemuende Trip> 84% are against it Arnelos> again, i'd like to see a straight up-down vote on going after Partemunde after an actual PLAN has been submitted for doing so Trip> it's lunacy Trip> splitting our forces Trip> that's the key to defeat Trip> win on one front or lose on two, take your pick Arnelos> The majority of people may agree with your reasoning there. The point is, the plan deserves an up-down vote. Arnelos> You will have every opportunity to denounce it as lunacy Trip> people had a chance to vote FOR or AGAINST it :P Arnelos> I think you may be right. Arnelos> I don't think that poll was all that representative of the opinions I now see being expressed as the debate has matured Trip> we were already talking about the risks of a single landing Trip> why complicate the situation? Arnelos> you and I both know how new arguments can sway polls Trip> Arne: again,t he decisions have to be made NOW Trip> boats have to be sent en route this turn, or else we delay 1, 2 or more turns Arnelos> Trip - if an actual PLAN can be forwarded for taking on Partemunde, we should consider it Arnelos> let the people decide Arnelos> you can argue against Arnelos> others will argue in favor Arnelos> people like me will get to decide Trip> and hold the turn for another 3 or 4 days? Arnelos> If the issue is this important, perhaps so Arnelos> We're talking about making or breaking the game here Arnelos> the team has a right to decide that issue Arnelos> in full knowledge of the competing plans MasterZen> well, the person who advocated such a plan should've put in detail Arnelos> I, as with you, am skeptical of splitting our forces... 16 knights in each stack... could it win? Trip> Arne, I fail to see where these so-called comments in favor of a Parthemuende strike are located after people having voted already MasterZen> you can't just give away an idea and then complain it wasn't agreed on if it wasn't fully supported or debated Arnelos> read the comments by BigFree, the comments by E_T, comments by others... part of what I've heard has been in chat as well Trip> I see no people complaining Trip> I see people who have talked about it and VOTED for it Trip> I don't see people reconsidering their views Trip> what I see is people debating about whether or not to destroy more of GWT's west Trip> which is something I'm willing to look at MasterZen> that said, if a plan to take on Parthemunde is made, then I don't see no reason in NOT re-voting Arnelos> MZ - exactly Arnelos> Trip - don't we owe it to ourselves to consider every possibility? Arnelos> if we determine it to be folly, then fine Trip> E_T has advocated since the beginning Trip> BF wants to burn everything Arnelos> but it should at least be considered fully Trip> how long are we going to wait for such plans to be made? Trip> at what point do we end this Trip> do we wait for 3 days to have a plan made and another 3 for a vote? Trip> another week? Trip> week and a half? Arnelos> It seems to me that things are falling into three categories... Trip> planning began 5 days ago Trip> where are the plans for attacking Parthemuende Arnelos_mapmaking> 1) ~30 knights at Ruhrpott... attack and pillage, then leave. Trip> where are the polls, the discussions? Arnelos> 2) ~30 knights at Ruhrpott... attack and keep attacking to burn the entire area... THEN leave Arnelos> 3) ~15 knights at Ruhrpott to take Ruhrpott and leave. ~15 Knights at Partemunde to attack that and then leave. Arnelos> We should have a straight vote on which is preferred MasterZen> i'm leaning towards a combination of 1-2 Trip> the differentiation between 1 and 2 cannot be determined until we land and know what we're up against MasterZen> see how well defended the area is, judge where GWT's army is, and trash the **** out of everything we can before their army arrives, then get the hell out Trip> we'll be voting blind Trip> what if there's 1 GWT Pike? Trip> different situation from if we see 25 GWT Ansar just out of range Arnelos> Trip - this is a valid criticism Trip> we can't make an educated decision until we're there Arnelos> however... the issue of whether to land ~30 Knights at one or ~15 knights at each can and must be made now * conmcb25_away has quit IRC (Quit: ) Trip> this is why I don't want to make a decision yet Trip> I'm not against either option Trip> but it's too early to decide

	09-05-2004 11:08									#4
	Remove this text

Between Trip, Arnelos, and Master Zen (heavily edited) - this was during part of the above:

quote: Trip> seriously Trip> this is a waste of resources Trip> if GWT has a single brain cell they'll notice strange things Trip> as you said Arne, they can already see us with mines but no roads Trip> what do they ALREADY think about that? Arnelos> true Trip> just because nothing changes doesn't 'mean they're not already suspicious Arnelos> it's mighty suspicious Arnelos> point is... as long as nothing else changes, it does minimize the changes... if not, I see no point Trip> and like I said, the Dominus iron still needs to be cut and re-mined Trip> another future change Trip> Trip> and like I said, the Dominus iron still needs to be cut and re-mined Arnelos> yes, but if it is re-roaded and re-mined all in the same turn, no change will be apparent Trip> we'll need 12 Workers to do that Trip> Dominus iron != Tripoli iron :P Trip> actually, we'd need 18 Workers to fully mask things Trip> and make sure they don't notice anything different from here on out Trip> E_T underestimates GWT Trip> he assumes they will notice some things but not others Trip> arbitrarily Trip> he assumes they already won't notice anything and that they won't in the future Trip> but that they WILL see something on the diplo screen Trip> completely arbitrary Trip> Bongo is on their team Trip> he knows what to look for Trip> he knows what these things mean Arnelos> From my persective, we're faced with a simple choice: Either we delay the attack for X number of turns it would take to do this *right* or we don't do it because it's pointless. MasterZen> no delay

	09-05-2004 11:09									#5
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Between E_T, Arnelos, and Master Zen (edited) - primarily AFTER the above chats were over:

quote: E_T_working_on_orders> I think that Parth is very doable, WITHOUT spliting forces away from the main attack Arnelos> how so? E_T_working_on_orders> because, if I can get more boats and land units, then we can do it for sure MasterZen> one thing to consider is that we're pretty much putting our cards on the table with this attack. It's win or lose the game E_T_working_on_orders> I agree MasterZen> i.e., sacrificing the building right now is quite acceptable in my eyes. We already have a lead on GWT in that regard E_T_working_on_orders> and just going for the FP is only a stopgap, IMHO Arnelos> if we only go for their FP, we need to ensure they don't get a GL... that means disbanding and razing or retreating *ALL* CGN and CFC forces from their continent once the FP goes down... complete denial of any chance of repair E_T_working_on_orders> but a coordinated set of strikes will definately do it Arnelos> please explain in detail Arnelos> Partemunde is a long ways from Ruhrpott E_T_working_on_orders> the last several days, I've been wracking my brain, to even see IF it was even possible E_T_working_on_orders> first off, go and look at the maps that I had posted Arnelos> I saw that E_T_working_on_orders> you need to see them as I talk you through it Arnelos> ok, going now Arnelos> ok, I'm there E_T_working_on_orders> first off, the logisitics E_T_working_on_orders> getting the assets to where we need them, when we need them E_T_working_on_orders> because things are coming from all areas, I had to look at where I needed things to be at, so that I know when they HAVE to be built E_T_working_on_orders> Now, then there is still the area of what is up north E_T_working_on_orders> IS there a passage, I can't tell E_T_working_on_orders> BUT, if something goes up there, how far can they go before they have to turn back and still be a part of the strike E_T_working_on_orders> we have 3 turns to Astro and only a few things ready to go up there E_T_working_on_orders> at this point in time E_T_working_on_orders> Now, then there is the CFC strike, If we do want them to do something E_T_working_on_orders> where is the best place that they can be to do the most good, with limited assets Arnelos> ****, it's already past midnight E_T_working_on_orders> the road from the south and GWT's Wines Arnelos> I *have* to be up and out by 8 a.m. tomorrow... make this quick E_T_working_on_orders> Working on it E_T_working_on_orders> they go in, cut as much road and take that one city Arnelos> more like raze the city E_T_working_on_orders> limits GWT's Naval movemetns and slows down any reinforcements to the south and they have to pull workers back to reroad E_T_working_on_orders> raze, take, all the same Arnelos> btw... something to consider.... what happens if GWT has set up a ferry from Firaxis lands to CGN lands? E_T_working_on_orders> that is only good for so many units, still doesn;t take on the issue of the Wines E_T_working_on_orders> and a possible CFC threat to Leo's Arnelos> why not just dive straight for the Leo's? E_T_working_on_orders> thing is, this whole thing is keyed on Limited objectives, hit & run Arnelos> true Arnelos> get in, make trouble, GET OUT MasterZen> destroying Leo's will be dificult as hell unless CFC manages to land and cut all those roads E_T_working_on_orders> and now, the Parth strike, I can get atleast 1 galley and 1 Caravel up there in the time frame E_T_working_on_orders> we want it to be as close to the other strikes as is possible, but after they all start Arnelos> I saw that from the map MasterZen> if CFC cuts the roads, we can actually land a force at the leo city 3-3-3-6-6 MasterZen> but it would have to attack a city on a hill :S Arnelos> one problem with your proposed route on the map... those ships would be *suiciding* out into ocean for 3 turns before we got Navigation unless you're right about there being land... that's a huge risk E_T_working_on_orders> because, we will have drawn their forces away, it should be easy for only a few knights MasterZen> I say, Leo's is out of the picture E_T_working_on_orders> well, evein if it;s a small island, we only have to be at that one spot to be on time Arnelos> E_T - it's not realistic Arnelos> we'll lose the ships to sinking Arnelos> why not just run along our shores and then launch off when we get Nav? E_T_working_on_orders> and again, anything we do send up there, can do a quick check and still be back before the other units head that way MasterZen> yeah, and those are wasted units :P E_T_working_on_orders> too far away E_T_working_on_orders> and we WILL have astro in 3 turns, so as long as we have sea, we can travel Arnelos> E_T - any units that spend THREE TURNS in ocean withotu Navigation have an 87.5% chance of being lost! E_T_working_on_orders> and IF there isn;t, up that one one point that is labled, NAV researched, then we can still turn back and be a part of the FP strike E_T_working_on_orders> Arnie, I'n NOT talking about going and risking anything sinking E_T_working_on_orders> ****, I'm not that much of a risk taker... Arnelos> you are if you're assuming they'll be an island fresh ready and there to prevent us from sinking E_T_working_on_orders> thing is, until we do know, i.e. follow that sea channel, then we won;t know, will we MasterZen> once again, a plan based on speculation... :shrug: Arnelos> if the point of this secondary strike is to hit Partemunde AFTER we hit Ruhrpott... how harmful would it be if it arrives 3-4 turns later rather only 1 turn later? Arnelos> Why not just wait for Nav? E_T_working_on_orders> AND at this stage, we can plan for there being someting up there and if there isn't then we don;t go E_T_working_on_orders> Well, If we don;t want to linger....... E_T_working_on_orders> AND also the surprise factor Arnelos> E_T - as far as GWT will know, our entire army will be near Ruhrpott E_T_working_on_orders> IF there is something there, it;s closer, travel time, than anything else we can work from E_T_working_on_orders> count the tiles Arnelos> why not simply hit Partemunde several turns later? Arnelos> E_T - we CANNOT count on their being an island - period E_T_working_on_orders> because, they would expect us to be able to get up there by that time, but not sooner Arnelos> I'm not convinced this is workable Arnelos> if we have to rely on their being an island in the middle of the ocean, it's not reliable enough to send even 6 knights off to that would be helping with the Ruhrpott strike Arnelos> *there E_T_working_on_orders> well, the thing is, we won't have the assets sooner, atleast from my first cut E_T_working_on_orders> or if so, not in the position to work right MasterZen> then WAIT Arnelos> look... I'm willing to send 6 knights toward Partemunde on the offchance they leave it comletely undefended... if we lose 'em on that, we lose 'em... but I'm not willing to have them out in the middle of the ocean for 3 turns without navigation E_T_working_on_orders> not in the ocean, no way Arnelos> anyhow, I *have* to go to bed MasterZen> agreed with arne E_T_working_on_orders> Hey, there could be land up there and it might be in the way, too much, to get there in the time we also want Arnelos> I'll try to be around tomorrow to discuss this... but it's Mother's day and I'll be busy MasterZen> :sigh: MasterZen> E_T, we can't work on a whim! MasterZen> we're either 100% sure, or we aren't MasterZen> if we want to send it off, let's do it, but at least guaranteeing their security Arnelos> I am not prepared to send part of our forces out into the ocean on the HOPE that they will find sea tiles E_T_working_on_orders> Well, It;s more than a whim for me, It's the same thing that gave me to know that Lux had contact with Vox before everyone else did Arnelos> no, it's not Arnelos> there were REAL CLUES for that Arnelos> you'r just wildass guessing here MasterZen> lol Arnelos> we have absolutely no guarantee that if there is an island, we'll find it in the first 3 turns of ocean transit E_T_working_on_orders> and there have been real cluse to this, even trip admits that Arnelos> what??? Arnelos> plese tell me what real clues there are for an island being in that EXACT location E_T_working_on_orders> Mongoose, for starters E_T_working_on_orders> someting about an island with cows on it Arnelos> how do we know that it's to the NorthWEST and not NorthEAST even if it exists? Arnelos> or even to the north at all? MasterZen> 4jesus christ E_T, you have ZERO evidence of this and you know it, why do you keep insisting????? Arnelos> that there may be an island, sure... we CANNOT guarantee it being to the Northwest of Remembrance Arnelos> nevermind within 3 turns movement Arnelos> there's a HUGE ocean MasterZen> and most of it unexplored E_T_working_on_orders> and we DON"T know what is up that sea channel, which is safe with Astro Arnelos> the sea channel also leads in OPPOSITE DIRECTIOn Arnelos> for all we know Arnelos> *could E_T_working_on_orders> the sea channel leads towards the largest blank area Arnelos> I'm not sending 6 knights on a wild goose chase E_T_working_on_orders> and it could have island that go the other way E_T_working_on_orders> thing is, it;s about the same distance to Parth the other way, too Arnelos> for every turn, we'd need to send our 6 knights out into the middle of the ocean on the HOPE that they found a sea tile within range at the end of the turn... it's just idiotic Arnelos> if they don't find a seatile, we're stuck waiting for Nav E_T_working_on_orders> Well, I'm NOT advocating moving onto ocean tiles and I'm not suisideing Arnelos> what are we going to do if there's nothing but ocean WITHIN VIEW E_T_working_on_orders> then we return Arnelos> 6 knights wasted Arnelos> which is the most likely possibility E_T_working_on_orders> No, as I said, we can send a quick scout up there, with 2 knights (galley) and IF they find something, then they wait for the followup E_T_working_on_orders> and if not, they can come back and still be part of the main party E_T_working_on_orders> well, I'll let you sleep on it, have a good Mothers Day tomorrow

	09-05-2004 11:32									#6
	Put an end to popups!

Good summary Arne.

For those too lazy to read the chat logs...

• I don't want to waste Workers hooking up iron every turn so that GWT *MIGHT* not notice we don't have iron. They're already going to see that all of our other iron sources are mined but not roaded (very odd situation with all of the rest of our land roaded), and they're going to see the Tripoli iron roaded but NOT mined, even more suspicious.
  
  Arne thought that if nothing changed and we were able to keep things looking the same for GWT it might work, but we still have to pillage the Dominus iron and then re-mine it, and then we have to pillage the Tripoli iron, getting rid of the mine. There's no way GWT won't notice this. Going through all this effort hoping on an off-chance that GWT won't see is a waste of resources.
  
  
• I am against a Parthemuende strike because anyone who knows anything about military matters knows that the key to defeat is splitting one's forces. This operation started off as a saving grace last chance at dealing GWT a blow so that we had time to build up our economy and launch a final invasion. Now we're trying to raze Parthemuende? And Leo's? We're not strong enough!
  
  GWT isn't just going to keel over and die as soon as we land, they're going to fight and they're going to fight hard. And if they have enough to fight with our Ruhrpott force may even be defeated! GWT's army has been strong to us for ages, we have no way of knowing how many units they have or where they are. As I said above (and Arne pointed out) I am not against trying to raze more cities in the west around Ruhrpott, but that depends on what GWT has over there. This is designed to be a limited operation. As much as it would be great to raze Ruhrpott, 4 or 5 cities in the west, Parthemuende and Flammburg, we don't have the resources. We will get burned. GWT's army is far stronger than ours. We should not stretch our limits or we'll find we do have them...
  
  We don't need to bend our backs completely over for this. We shouldn't risk everything in an all-or-nothing gamble.
  
  We have a shot at destroying their FP and ~40% of their economic capability. Let's do that, and use our GA to put them out of their misery.

	09-05-2004 11:46									#7
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Trip, You want X Forces for FP strike. If I can give you X+Y, how is that splitting what you had for the inititial strike?

E_T

	09-05-2004 12:00									#8
	Remove this text

I have stated, THAT:

1) we can send a small force, via galley, when we get Astro, to scout that sea channel
a) if they don't find anything, then they can come back
b) they would be back and fully loaded, ready for the FP party

2) If they DO find something, then the follow up group(s) can head up there.
a) they ONLY need to be at a certain position WHEN we get Navigation AND would get to that point the TURN before we get Navigation
b) after then, who cares about Ocean..

[EDIT] AT NO TIME WOULD THEY ENTER OCEAN TILES, UNLESS THERE IS SEA TILES BEYOND. They would never end a turn in Ocean tile, before we get Navigation [/edit]

E_T

	09-05-2004 12:09									#9
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: MasterZen> E_T you can't base a plan on someone making a mistake

Is not Trip's FP strike plan assuming the same? In other words, that GWT is leaving their vulnerable flank open to an attack of this kind?

E_T

	09-05-2004 12:16									#10
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

I agree that trying to obfuscate our iron cutting is going to be more trouble than it's worth, and may well be a pointless effort. If we cut it, let's just live with it being clearly cut.

I like the secondary attack plan a lot. It's a gamble, sure, but the payoff is so grand that it eclipeses the cost of the gamble.

First, as this is not an attempt on our part to WIN A WAR against GWT and conquer them, general military thought about dividing your forces does not apply. If we throw more units at Ruhrpott they will just waste space in our boats. Destroying Ruhrpott may take only 5 Cavalary, or it may take 30, but it most certainly does not need more than that. We're not trying to capture or hold territory, we're merely trying to destroy a single target and hopefully a few other targets of opportunity. If we have extra resources ... knights and galleys, why not take a stab at an even better target: Partemunde.

Traditional S.O.D. planning is too narrow minded here. GWT cannot muster enough forces to keep our first landing group from taking our Ruhrpott, so any additional available units should be put to use in this new mission.

And why not? There is not additional risk to us, this second mission will not hinder the first. This second mission is AIDED by the first and is even more likely to succeed due to the first.

I love this plan. I'm glad to be a part of it. Let's do it.

--Togas

	09-05-2004 12:21									#11
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

I like it. We should definitely look into a combination of the plans. As E_T stated, we will have the X amount of forces required for the mission, plus Y. Let's use Y to **** with their pyramids.

	09-05-2004 12:36									#12
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

I agree with Togas and WhiteBandit. It time for a certain amount of risk to be taken even though it's really not much risk at all. Their FP won't be guarded by 30 Ansar; I will guarantee that! I like E_T's thinking on this.

	09-05-2004 18:19									#13
	Put an end to popups!

After hours of Chat and tonnes of communicating with ND in the PTWDG, I and other on GoW have noticed that they are not always operating optimally. Working unimproved tiles at times (yes working the improved ones were clearly better), not being overly forsighted in wonders. From these experiences, it would be my guess that GWT is not going to check each and every source of Iron. They will not be a anal as we are in intell. This stealth plan to hide our Iron supply will probably go unnoticed.

	09-05-2004 20:02									#14
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

I do not like the idea of splitting our forces. We have to assume that they will know we are going for their FP when we land. There are multiple cities in 1 turn (4, in fact) reinforcement range of Ruhrpott. There are also 10 cities within Ansar attack range of our landing location. If we can get two forces of equal size and be confidident they can both succeed, then go ahead. Other launch everything toward Ruhrpott and burn other cities in the area if we have sufficient forcese left.

	09-05-2004 21:40									#15
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I don't see the point in trying to hide our iron cutting if we can't do it completely. As Arnelos says, if they do notice, the partial hiding will just make them suspicious.

I do like the idea of striking Parthemunde; and indeed, if we can scout the way ahead with a galley to see if it's possible, I don't see why not... I agree with Arnelos that it being delayed 3 turns would put the mission in unacceptable risk from returning Ansars, but if we know ahead of time whether there will be sea far enough out for it to be feasible and can divert the forces to the FP strike if not, this sounds like a good idea to explore.

	09-05-2004 22:13									#16
	Increase Your PM Length

To cutting the iron.

To the diversion attack idea.

	09-05-2004 22:17									#17
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by dejon To cutting the iron. I assume you meant that towards "hiding" the Iron cut; because the Iron cut should happen regardless if it could be hidden or not.

	09-05-2004 23:08									#18
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Yes, thanks BF.

	09-05-2004 23:41									#19
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

O.k., after finally looking at the possibilites and the monies involved, I've finally come up with some hard figures. These are Maximums.

11 boats, all Caravels, 5 Muskets, 27 knights and 1 settler - 1664 gold

12 boats, all Caravels, 5 Muskets, 30 knights and 1 settler - 2004 gold

13 boats, all Caravels, 6 Muskets, 32 knights and 1 settler - 2292 gold


and that's it..... no more because of monies and in ALL Cases, there is NO NEED to waste 1 single shield.

Trip was talking about having 1800 gold for this, and last night in chat, he also stated that

quote: [Trip> 2000g is basically our maximum possible threshold [Trip> maybe 2200 [Trip> but that'd seriously hamper CGN

[EDIT] details to follow [/edit]

MoI E_T

	10-05-2004 00:00									#20
	Tired of ads?

Thanks for the details E_T. We need to consider this a major move by us. Not just some small plot to "sort of" disrupt GWT. We should be willing to put out some resources towards this; the larger the risk the larger the reward.

I'd vote to use all the resources we could possibly muster for this attack to happen in both spots as E_T earlier post suggests.

MZ: Please play FAM 4. I sent it to you at 7:32 PM PDT on May 6.

	10-05-2004 00:22									#21
	All Plans - what will be the same Inflate your Upload Space

600AD: 3 turns to Astro
- Ming - shortrushes 11 shields for 44 gold and changes build to Knight (2 turns left).
- Banana - changes build to Knight (1 turn left).
- Tripoli - changes build to Knight (2 turns left).
- BFC - contines with Aquaduct build (4 turns left).
- Inc - continues with Galley build (2 turns left).
- Hisp - Galley finished, starts another Galley, which will be autoupgraded in 3 turns (5 turns sched).
- HoD - shortrushes 3 shields for 12 gold and changes build to Harbor (2 turns left).
- Lum Ban - changes builds to Galley, which will AutoUpgrade in 3 turns. (7 turns sched).
- Protuberance - changes builds to Galley, which will AutoUpgrade in 3 turns. (8 turns sched).

-Sub Total spent this turn (see specific plans for total) = 56 gold.

610AD: 2 turns to Astro
- Ming - building Knight (1 turn left).
- Banana - Knight built, start building Knight (will be horse) (3 turns Sched).
- Tripoli - building Knight (1 turns left).
- BFC - building Aquaduct (3 turns left).
- Inc - building Galley (1 turns left).
- Hisp - building Galley, which will be autoupgraded in 2 turns (4 turns left).
- HoD - building Harbor (1 turns left).
- Lum Ban - building Galley, which will be autoupgraded in 2 turns (6 turns left).
- Protuberance - building Galley, which will be autoupgraded in 2 turns (7 turns left).

-Sub Total spent this turn (see specific plans for total) = 0 gold.

620AD: 1 turn to Astro
- Ming - Knight built, start building Knight (will be horse) (2 turns Sched).
- Banana - building Knight (will be horse) (2 turns left).
- Tripoli - Knight built, start building Knight (will be horse) (3 turns Sched).
- BFC - building Aquaduct (2 turns left).
- Inc - Galley built, start building Knight (will be horse) (4 turns Sched).
- Hisp - building Galley, which will be autoupgraded in 1 turn (3 turns left). Shortrush 6 shields for 24 gold.
- HoD - Harbor built, start building Galley, which will be autoupgraded in 1 turn (3 turns sched).
- Lum Ban - building Galley, which will be autoupgraded in 1 turns (5 turns left). Shortrush 14 shields for 56 gold.
- Protuberance - building Galley, which will be autoupgraded in 1 turn (6 turns left).

-Sub Total spent this turn (see specific plans for total) = 80 gold.

630AD: IRON CUT THIS TURN, change Knight builds to Horses Astronomy finished and all galley builds are autoupgraded to Caravels. 8 turns to Navigation.
- Ming - building Horse (1 turns left).
- Banana - building Horse (1 turns left).
- Tripoli - building Horse (2 turns left).
- BFC - building Aquaduct (1 turns left).
- Inc - building Horse (3 turns left). Shortrush 3 shields for 12 gold.
- Hisp - building Caravel (2 turns left).
- HoD - building Caravel (2 turns left).
- Lum Ban - building Caravel (4 turns left).
- Protuberance - building Caravel (5 turns left). Shortrush 17 shields for 68 gold.

-Sub Total spent this turn (see specific plans for total) = 80 gold.

640AD: 7 turns to Navigation.
- Ming - Horse built, Start building Horse (2 turns sched).
- Banana - Horse built, Start building Horse (3 turns sched).
- Tripoli - building Horse (1 turn left).
- BFC - Aqueduct built, ADD WORKER, Start building Horse (3 turns sched).
- Inc - building Horse (2 turns left).
- Hisp - building Caravel (1 turns left).
- HoD - building Caravel (1 turns left). Shortrush 8 shields for 32 gold.
- Lum Ban - building Caravel (3 turns left).
- Protuberance - building Caravel (4 turns left).

-Sub Total spent this turn (see specific plans for total) = 32 gold.

650AD: 6 turns to Navigation.
- Ming - building Horse (1 turns left).
- Banana - building Horse (2 turns left).
- Tripoli - Horse built, Start building Horse (3 turns sched).
- BFC - building Horse (2 turns left).
- Inc - building Horse (1 turns left).
- Hisp - Caravel built, back to regular production.
- HoD - Caravel built, start building Caravel (3 turns sched).
- Lum Ban - building Caravel (2 turns left).
- Protuberance - building Caravel (3 turns left).

-Sub Total spent this turn (see specific plans for total) = 0 gold.

660AD: 5 turns to Navigation.
- Ming - Horse built, Start building Horse (2 turns sched).
- Banana - building Horse (1 turns left).
- Tripoli - building Horse (2 turns left).
- BFC - building Horse (1 turns left).
- Inc - Horse built, start building Caravel (5 turns sched).
- HoD - building Caravel (2 turns left).
- Lum Ban - building Caravel (1 turns left).
- Protuberance - building Caravel (2 turns left).

-Sub Total spent this turn (see specific plans for total) = 0 gold.

670AD: 4 turns to Navigation.
- Ming - building Horse (1 turns left).
- Banana - Horse built, Start building Horse (3 turns sched).
- Tripoli - building Horse (1 turns left).
- BFC - Horse built, Start building Horse (3 turns sched).
- Inc - building Caravel (4 turns left). Shortrush 3 shields for 12 gold.
- HoD - building Caravel (1 turns left). Shortrush 8 shields for 32 gold.
- Lum Ban - Caravel built, back to regular production.
- Protuberance - building Caravel (1 turns left).

-Sub Total spent this turn (see specific plans for total) = 44 gold.

680AD: 3 turns to Navigation.
- Ming - Horse built, Start building Horse (2 turns sched).
- Banana - building Horse (2 turns left).
- Tripoli - Horse built, Back to regular Production
- BFC - building Horse (2 turns left).
- Inc - building Caravel (3 turns left). Shortrush 3 shields for 12 gold.
- HoD - Caravel built, back to regular production.
- Protuberance - Caravel built, back to regular production.

-Sub Total spent this turn (see specific plans for total) = 12 gold.

690AD: 2 turns to Navigation.
- Ming - building Horse (1 turns left).
- Banana - building Horse (1 turns left).
- BFC - building Horse (1 turns left).
- Inc - building Caravel (2 turns left).

-Sub Total spent this turn (see specific plans for total) = 0 gold.

700AD: 1 turn to Navigation.
- Ming - Horse built, back to Regular production.
- Banana - Horse built, back to Regular production.
- BFC - Horse built, back to Regular production.
- Inc - building Caravel (1 turns left).

-Sub Total spent this turn (see specific plans for total) = 0 gold

710AD: Navigation Finished - start of Movements.
- Inc - Caravel built, back to regular Production.

-Sub Total spent this turn (see specific plans for total) = 0 gold


MoI E_T

Last edited by E_T on 10-05-2004 at 02:36

	10-05-2004 00:42									#22
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

I'm glad to see so much activity in this thread on this subject. I was getting concerned last night that the discussion on issues like this had become a little to cloistered among the leadership. Even if we don't have time to poll them, getting the opinions and insights of the team helps a lot.

Thanks, guys.

	10-05-2004 01:00									#23
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Have we talked to CFC about this ambitious plan yet and to see what they'll be able to muster in 12 turns? This will require quite a bit of coordination and they will most likely need their own funds to do some mass upgrading as well...

	10-05-2004 01:59									#24
	Plan #1 - 11 boats Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

This is the same as the All Plans amount, so the shortrush subtotals are:


600AD: 3 turns to Astro
- Ming - shortrushes 11 shields for 44 gold
- HoD - shortrushes 3 shields for 12 gold

-Total spent this turn = 56 gold.

610AD: 2 turns to Astro

-Total spent this turn = 0 gold.

620AD: 1 turn to Astro
- Hisp - Shortrush 6 shields for 24 gold.
- Lum Ban - Shortrush 14 shields for 56 gold.

- Total spent this turn = 80 gold.

630AD: IRON CUT THIS TURN, change Knight builds to Horses Astronomy finished and all galley builds are autoupgraded to Caravels. 8 turns to Navigation.
- Inc - Shortrush 3 shields for 12 gold.
- Protuberance - Shortrush 17 shields for 68 gold.

- Total spent this turn = 80 gold.

640AD: 7 turns to Navigation.
- HoD - Shortrush 8 shields for 32 gold.

- Total spent this turn = 32 gold.

650AD: 6 turns to Navigation.

- Total spent this turn = 0 gold.

660AD: 5 turns to Navigation.

- Total spent this turn = 0 gold.

670AD: 4 turns to Navigation.
- Inc - Shortrush 3 shields for 12 gold.
- HoD - Shortrush 8 shields for 32 gold.

- Total spent this turn = 44 gold.

680AD: 3 turns to Navigation.
- Inc - Shortrush 3 shields for 12 gold.

- Total spent this turn = 12 gold.

690AD: 2 turns to Navigation.

- Total spent this turn = 0 gold.

700AD: 1 turn to Navigation.

- Total spent this turn = 0 gold.

710AD: Navigation Finished - start of Movements.

- Total spent this turn = 0 gold.


Totals:
Shortrushes - 304
5 Muskets upgrades - 300
12 Knight upgrades - 960
5 Caravel Upgrades - 100

Grand total - 1664 Gold

MoI E_T

Last edited by E_T on 10-05-2004 at 02:37

	10-05-2004 02:32									#25
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by E_T Trip, You want X Forces for FP strike. If I can give you X+Y, how is that splitting what you had for the inititial strike?

Who are you to say that this 'x' is enough? Who am I? Only GWT knows. I'm just trying to put as much force into this as possible to maximize our chance of success.

	10-05-2004 02:34									#26
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quote: Originally posted by E_T Is not Trip's FP strike plan assuming the same? In other words, that GWT is leaving their vulnerable flank open to an attack of this kind?

Them leaving their flank open is not a mistake. They have a finite number of of forces and are fighting a major war against CGN. If they spread their forces enough to where they can cover every front properly then they wouldn't be able to defeat CGN. It's an issue of a lack of resources.

That is what the success of the FP strike depends on, not on a GWT mistake.

	10-05-2004 02:51									#27
	Plan #2 - 12 boats Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

This is the same as the All Plans/Plan #1 except for what is listed. The Shortrush amounts have the All Plan plus this specific amounts.


600AD: 3 turns to Astro
- Dominus - shortrushes 3 shields for 12 gold. Changes build to Barracks (3 turns left to build).
- Mongoose - changes build to Galley, which will AutoUpgrade in 3 turns. (7 turns sched).

- Total spent this turn = 56 gold (All plan) + 12 (Plan #2) = 68 gold.

610AD: 2 turns to Astro
- Dominus - building Barracks (2 turns left).
- Mongoose - building Galley, which will AutoUpgrade in 3 turns. (6 turns left).

-Total spent this turn = 0 gold (All plan) + 0 (Plan #2) = 0 gold.


620AD: 1 turn to Astro
- Dominus - building Barracks (1 turns left).
- Mongoose - building Galley, which will AutoUpgrade in 3 turns. (5 turns left). Shortrush 17 shields for 68 gold.

- Total spent this turn = 80 gold (All plan) + 68 (Plan #2) = 148 gold.


630AD: IRON CUT THIS TURN, change Knight builds to Horses Astronomy finished and all galley builds are autoupgraded to Caravels. 8 turns to Navigation.
- Dominus - Barracks built, start building Horse (3 turns sched).
- Mongoose - building Caravel (4 turns left).

- Total spent this turn = 80 gold (All plan) + 0 (Plan #2) = 80 gold.

640AD: 7 turns to Navigation.
- Dominus - building Horse (2 turns left). Shortrush 2 shields for 8 gold.
- Mongoose - building Caravel (3 turns left).

- Total spent this turn = 32 gold (All plan) + 8 (Plan #2) = 40 gold.

650AD: 6 turns to Navigation.
- Dominus - building Horse (1 turns left).
- Mongoose - building Caravel (2 turns left).
- Hisp - Caravel built. start building Horse (4 turns sched).

- Total spent this turn = 0 gold (All plan) + 0 (Plan #2) = 0 gold.

660AD: 5 turns to Navigation.
- Dominus - building Horse (1 turns left).
- Mongoose - building Caravel (2 turns left).
- Hisp - Horse (3 turns left). Shortrush 3 shields for 12 gold.

- Total spent this turn = 0 gold (All plan) + 12 (Plan #2) = 12 gold.

670AD: 4 turns to Navigation.
- Dominus - Horse built, start building Horse (3 turns sched).
- Mongoose - building Caravel (1 turns left).
- Hisp - Horse (2 turns left).

- Total spent this turn = 44 gold (All plan) + 0 (Plan #2) = 44 gold.

680AD: 3 turns to Navigation.
- Dominus - building Horse (2 turns left).
- Mongoose - Caravel built, Back to Regular Production.
- Hisp - Horse (1 turns left).

- Total spent this turn = 12 gold (All plan) + 0 (Plan #2) = 12 gold.

690AD: 2 turns to Navigation.
- Dominus - building Horse (1 turn left).
- Hisp - Horse built, Back to Regular Production.

- Total spent this turn = 0 gold (All plan) + 0 (Plan #2) = 0 gold.

700AD: 1 turn to Navigation.
- Dominus - Horse built, Back to Regular Production.

- Total spent this turn = 0 gold (All plan) + 0 (Plan #2) = 0 gold.

710AD: Navigation Finished - start of Movements.

- Total spent this turn = 0 gold (All plan) + 0 (Plan #2) = 0 gold.


Totals:
Shortrushes - 404
5 Muskets upgrades - 300
15 Knight upgrades - 1200
5 Caravel Upgrades - 100

Grand total - 2004 Gold

MoI E_T

	10-05-2004 02:53									#28
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Combat calculator results:

26 Knights against 10 Muskets:
68% chance of success.

32 Knights against 10 Muskets:
97.4% chance of success.

We've lost many battles against GCA with a 2/3 chance of success. And this is ignoring any counter-attacking forces they might have around Ruhrpott. How many MIs or Ansar might they also have?

10 Muskets unlikely you say?

We've only seen 15 GWT Pikes. That's fewer than we have now. Could they have more? How many? Pike to Musket upgrades are only 30g. Spear to Muskets are 40g. And they're running 0% science.

* Trip has a bad feeling some people are overestimating us and underestimating GWT...

	10-05-2004 03:19									#29
	Plan #3 - 13 boats Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

This is the same as the All Plans/Plan #1 AND #2, except for what is listed. The Shortrush amounts have the All the other Plans plus this specific amounts for this plan.


600AD: 3 turns to Astro
- Chiquita - changes build to Barracks (1 turn left to build).
- Hero's - Shortrushes 17 shields for 68 gold. Change build to Longbowman (shield storage), will change in 3 turns. (5 turns sched).

- Total spent this turn = 56 gold (All plan) + 12 (Plan #2) + 68 (Plan #3) = 136 gold.

610AD: 2 turns to Astro
- Chiquita - Barracks built start building Knight (will be horse) (3 turns sched).
- Hero's - building Longbowman (shield storage), will change in 2 turns. (4 turns left).

-Total spent this turn = 0 gold (All plan) + 0 (Plan #2) + 0 (Plan #3) = 0 gold.


620AD: 1 turn to Astro
- Chiquita - building Knight (will be horse) (2 turns left).
- Hero's - building Longbowman (shield storage), will change in 1 turns. (3 turns left).

- Total spent this turn = 80 gold (All plan) + 68 (Plan #2) + 0 (Plan #3) = 148 gold.


630AD: IRON CUT THIS TURN, change Knight builds to Horses Astronomy finished and all galley builds are autoupgraded to Caravels. 8 turns to Navigation.
- Chiquita - building Horse (1 turns left).
- Hero's - building Longbowman (shield storage), change to Caravel. (2 turns left).

- Total spent this turn = 80 gold (All plan) + 0 (Plan #2) + 0 (Plan #3) = 80 gold.

640AD: 7 turns to Navigation.
- Chiquita - Horse built, start building Horse (3 turns sched).
- Hero's - building Caravel. (1 turns left).

- Total spent this turn = 32 gold (All plan) + 8 (Plan #2) + 0 (Plan #3) = 40 gold.

650AD: 6 turns to Navigation.
- Chiquita - building Horse (2 turns left).
- Hero's - Caravel built, back to regular production.

- Total spent this turn = 0 gold (All plan) + 0 (Plan #2) + 0 (Plan #3) = 0 gold.

660AD: 5 turns to Navigation.
- Chiquita - building Horse (1 turns left).

- Total spent this turn = 0 gold (All plan) + 12 (Plan #2) + 0 (Plan #3) = 12 gold.

670AD: 4 turns to Navigation.
- Chiquita - Horse built, back to regular production.

- Total spent this turn = 44 gold (All plan) + 0 (Plan #2) + 0 (Plan #3) = 44 gold.

680AD: 3 turns to Navigation.

- Total spent this turn = 12 gold (All plan) + 0 (Plan #2) + 0 (Plan #3) = 12 gold.

690AD: 2 turns to Navigation.

- Total spent this turn = 0 gold (All plan) + 0 (Plan #2) + 0 (Plan #3) = 0 gold.

700AD: 1 turn to Navigation.

- Total spent this turn = 0 gold (All plan) + 0 (Plan #2) + 0 (Plan #3) = 0 gold.

710AD: Navigation Finished - start of Movements.

- Total spent this turn = 0 gold (All plan) + 0 (Plan #2) + 0 (Plan #3) = 0 gold.


Totals:
Shortrushes - 472
6 Muskets upgrades - 360
17 Knight upgrades - 1360
5 Caravel Upgrades - 100

Grand total - 2292 Gold

MoI E_T

	10-05-2004 03:27									#30
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I need to know what plan we are going to be going with, because of Chiquita & Dominus. Both will have build/WF changes and Dominus gets 1 shortrush on this turn. Both are currently working on Markets and growth. The WF and build changes would completely effect these 2 from what was originally planned.

Plus, if we go with the Full Plan, Hero's summit MUST be shortrushed this turn. But, We can hold of on that part (for more cash) and do that Caravel 2 turns from now in Lum Musue, for 4 more gold.

SO, the main point is Chiquita and Dominus.

E_T