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asleepathewheel
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listening too long to one song
Mar 2002
time: 00:36
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what about outside Hurricane. Pretty symbolic, our crown jewel, and the place from which our armada sails to its destiny. Plus its then a straight shot east to lego
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Theseus
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The warmonger formerly known as rpodos. Gathering Storm! Apolyton Spirit!!
Apr 2002
time: 00:36
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So, going back to the fundamental naval plan...
[BTW, on somebody's recommendation (nye?), I switched to Firefox a while back, and love it. It also has a great extension for zooming in and out on web images, which is very useful in perusing sleepy's map.]
First off, excellent first draft sleepy. 
A quick review and a number of discussion points:
Transports in a first picket line. Did we ever resolve the forting trick? That will determine the spread. Do the Transports stand alone? I wouldn't mind some Destroyers for cover, and as a deterrent, and for mutual picket support (more on Destroyers below). Also, Carriers with say, 1xFighter and 3xBombers (hereafter referred to as 1+3 Carriers), could very well coordinate with the Marine attack, and retreat to picket strongholds.
Subs in various spots for second level coverage. Fine... are we all OK with having them 'uncovered'? Also, I am thinking about their primary and secondary missions... that is, support the first picket line, or attack enemy ships on the way in? What does that mean for placement? Does that also perhaps indicate two or more Subs on certain tiles?
Regarding 'Fleets' as sleepy indicated, those are the defense force, yes? We definitely need one more to cover Elipolis and WoC. I think it pretty critical that these fleets stand off the coast by two tiles, so that Destroyers can reach Magellan-enhanced enemy Transports at their staging area. Further, each fleet should include, if possible, one Battleship and one 1+3 Carrier. Thus, fleet positioning should also include consideration of interlocking ranges.
Regarding timing of getting all this stuff into place, the most critical bit is the first line, and the warning it sends to Lego. We need to telegraph a defensive posture, perhaps at the Sub line, sending out and returning investigatory Transports, until ready for our attack.
More thought needed on this, definitely. I also need to catch up on offensive naval planning, and prolly need some push-back on what we are capable of economically.
I have a further suggestion: If Arrian is still around, that we split up offensive and defensive responsibilities. Given, uh, ahem, our relative offensive track records (  ), I'll take defense, and thus primarily naval issues. To go one step further, we can Red Team / Blue Team things, so I will critique and try to find the flaws in the attack plan, and vice versa.
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Theseus
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The warmonger formerly known as rpodos. Gathering Storm! Apolyton Spirit!!
Apr 2002
time: 00:36
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OK, I'll work on land defenses too.
Anybody know where vulture's basic calcs on Marine : Infantry ratios are (or just what the are)?
I am particularly interested in several things:
* Success rates for 4 and 8 Marines against fortified Infantry, in stacks of 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, and 8, in towns and cities, and also on hills and mountains. A second run incorporating defensive Arty at a ratio of 1 for every 2-3 Infantry (might not be necessary... this is embarassing, but I honestly don't know whether Arty zero-bombard against Marines. Embarassing for Firaxis and the SP AI, that is!  ).
* If it can be done, what about repeating each of the above runs with 2 fortified Tanks added to each city?
* Anybody remember if forts, walls, and / or coastal fortresses make a difference against Marines?
* Which cities already have walls? Do we have any coastal fortresses?
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DeepO
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supporting Candle'Bre
Jan 2002
time: 06:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Theseus
OK, I'll work on land defenses too. |
Great!
quote:
Anybody know where vulture's basic calcs on Marine : Infantry ratios are (or just what the are)? |
I assume we need vulture for that 
quote:
* Anybody remember if forts, walls, and / or coastal fortresses make a difference against Marines? |
I saw different reports, but the last I read was info from Catt on marines, in vanilla Civ. Can't help you there
quote:
* Which cities already have walls? Do we have any coastal fortresses? |
I think Eli has walls, and Arashi has walls (they both have grown to city size, so they're gone). I don't know if we had them destroyed once we build the Great wall, though. None of the other cities were protected.
There are no coastal fotresses either. Do these work against marines? If so, how much do they cost, and where do you want them?
DeepO
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vulture
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Leeds, UK
Jun 2001
time: 05:36
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Okay, lots of tables to shortly follow this post. Each table has no. of marines and no. of infantry as its axes. Each entry has 4 values, arranged in a square. These are the % chance the marines take the tile when defended by:
Just Infantry - - - - - - - - Infantry plus artillery
Infantry plus tanks - - - Infantry, artillery and tanks
No. of tanks is always 2. No. of artillery is 1 (1-3 inf), 2 (4,5 inf) or 4 (8 inf).
Hope that's clear... All defenders are fortified.
Work out the terrain bonus for the situation you want to know about, and find the appropriate table.
IIRC bonuses are:
flat terrain: +10%
hills: +50%
mountains: +100%
towns (1-6): +0%
cities (7-12): +50%
metropolises (13+): +100%
Max bonus is +150%, for metropolis in hills. I got carried away and did +200% anyway...
Last edited by vulture on 02-06-2004 at 22:22
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Octavian X
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Probably buried under piles of Literature, Biology, or Government homework
Jan 2002
time: 23:36
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A fortified ship gives a three tile view radius. IIRC, fighters have a recon range of four tiles.
EDIT: Corrected fighter range.
Last edited by Octavian X on 03-06-2004 at 09:43
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asleepathewheel
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listening too long to one song
Mar 2002
time: 00:36
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I don't think we are planning on doing the fort unit trick, however...
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DeepO
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supporting Candle'Bre
Jan 2002
time: 06:36
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Arrian, in the first estimate of a plan, I was considering 2-turn warning... it doesn't matter too much, if this means we can strike at a larger area without them knowing where. If we go for the shortest route, they know for certain which city they have to defend. I was even thinking of devising a decoy operation: Fill two fleets with tanks and infs, but only one with marines. both steam to the Lego coast, ready to hit them at the same turn. Only one attacks, the other one is meant as reinforcements a couple of turns later.
This way, they can scout the area (we have to foresee fighters, or subs by that time), they could even bomb one of our fleets, but they can't know which fleet has the marines in them. So, their defenses will be thin for their cities.
In case they know which city is going to be attacked, they only need to put 20 infs in it, and it's totally safe. (barring unforeseen luck from our side).
DeepO
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vulture
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Leeds, UK
Jun 2001
time: 05:36
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Surprise isn't the crucial factor, as long as they don't have 10 turns worth of notice, IMHO. As DeepO says, giving one turn warning when there is only one city we can hit means that they can put every unit they have in that city, and we have no chance to take it. It is better, surely, to find a position from which we can threaten several cities (including empty decoy transports to threaten other cities possibly), and give 2 or 3 turns warning - they'll have to spread their forces out over all the threatened cities, giving us a much greater chance of success.
Assuming they have railroads connecting all their cities by now. If they don't by the time we attack, they're terribly remiss.
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26-05-2004 06:18
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