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asleepathewheel
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listening too long to one song
Mar 2002
time: 00:36
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sounds like something else to coordinate with GoW. It might be beneficial for us to give lego 2 turns warning, that way their east coast might be less defended for a GoW landing...
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asleepathewheel
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listening too long to one song
Mar 2002
time: 00:36
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Uh, yeah, that's why I should think before I post....
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Theseus
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The warmonger formerly known as rpodos. Gathering Storm! Apolyton Spirit!!
Apr 2002
time: 00:36
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OK, here's what I'm hoping for in terms of a military planning process:
* I'm going to take ownership of defensive planning, both land and sea. I'm starting with sea, and have manually determined the boundary of tiles representing 6 move access to any of our tiles, as well as 5 turn access to two or more cities (super danger zones, but also good bombing ranges). Give me a few days to post an image showing all this. From there, I've tweaked sleepy's original naval defense conception... see the preliminary unit requirements at the end of this post. Next I'll be working on land unit requirements.
* Next, we need to flesh out the attack plan. Hopefully Vel will step up on this, building on the thoughts and commentary thus far (I honestly haven;t put much thought into it yet). This will further give DeepO and the team an early indication of unit requirements.
*Next, we mesh the defensive and offensive plans for efficiency and mobile access.
* Next, MASSIVE crtitiquing of the overall war plan, and adjustments accordingly.
Preview of naval defensive unit requirements:
Battleships - 4
Transports - 9
Subs - 12
Destroyers - I am currently thinking of 6 fleets, wiht Destroyers as their backbone... how many per? 3? 4?
Carriers - 6
Bombers - 18, of which at least 6 should also be available for offensive tasking. Also, I'm guessing an additional 8 land-based Bombers, if not more.
Fighters - 6
I know it's a lot... but don;t we all have the sense that a killer defensive naval posture is critical?
And just to stress the system further, I haven;t fully thought it out yet, but in terms of land-based defenses, I am (very preliminarily) predicting:
Infantry - 50
Arty - 25
Tanks - 15-20
Am I insane?
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asleepathewheel
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listening too long to one song
Mar 2002
time: 00:36
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I think once we see what lego's line consists of we will know more about the navy. Hopefully it will be weak and a sub or two each can take them out. OTOH, carriers w/ bombers can redline just about anything out there, so we can use weak mop up weapons.
How many of what do you see in each theater, T? I think we can get by with stacking ~50% of our home units in Eli, if we have many ships guarding the south and central Stormia-Bob ocean.
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asleepathewheel
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listening too long to one song
Mar 2002
time: 00:36
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well, the good news is, that until we ship off, we will have quite a few defenders around, just in case...The concern of course, is the ole double cross by GoW.
One thing we might consider doing is building a settler and putting him on a transport somewhere near the poles. That way our game won't be over immediately if we are double crossed, and our navy will be able to do some damage to the enemy.
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asleepathewheel
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listening too long to one song
Mar 2002
time: 00:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Arrian
Seems high to me. I admit I don't use them in SP at all, but my recollection is that they suck. I could see us having a specific use for 1 or 2 of them, but 12? Wouldn't we rather have more destroyers?
-Arrian |
We don't want other teams to know we are watching them, do we? Further, we could use subs to scout for pickets closer to legoland.
In SP, yes they suck. I thinkk the stealth in mp will come in handy.
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vulture
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Leeds, UK
Jun 2001
time: 05:36
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I also think 12 might be too many. Subs don't get stealth attacks in PtW, remember. Lego will assume we have some, and won't leave ships unstacked, which means that subs have little combat value, but just provide some advance scouting, as long as they don't get run over.
12 subs = 10 destroyers = 6 battleships. For combat value, I'd take the destroyers over the subs.
12 subs is also equal to two fully loaded carriers, with change left over. I'd suggest that two carriers with 8 fighters / bombers provide reasonable advanced recon, combined with combat ability (although more vulnerability to mass loss).
I suspect the idea with subs is that an invading fleet will try to take out any ships it comes across across the board to try and create confusion about the approach route. Subs don't get caught in this (hopefully) and can hang around to see where the main thrust is coming from, so we know where to mass our naval defenses. A destroyer (or transport) screen in the same role would be much easier to wipe out en masse, giving us no useful info. Hunting down every member of a sub screen is much, much harder.
I'm just not sure that this gives us a significant advantage over, say, identifying the areas that allow Lego to threaten the most no. of cities, and massing the 10 extra destroyers in that area. The effectiveness of that tactic depends on where the threat areas are, and how large they are - i.e. can they reasonably be covered by a single stack of 10 destroyers. That way any fleet in such an area faces a greater chance of losing a significant number of troops (hopefully marines) in the boats, thus offsetting the value of threatening a wider range of targets. If they shy away from the threat zone, then there are (by definition) fewer cities to defend, so we can stack them high with infantry.
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vulture
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Leeds, UK
Jun 2001
time: 05:36
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Note to above: there should be a blue dot an Inchoff 2 as well.
Game mechanics question:
Say, for example, that Lego land a bick stack on the mountanis at Inchoff 1, includnig lots of cavalry. That stack can threaten 3 cities: Inchoff, Winds of Change, and Santa Anna. So we whack most of our defensive units in those cities. Next turn, a marine invasion turns up and takes the now-lightly defended Blizzard. The stack from Inchoff move back into their transports, and the transports move in to Blizzard. The units can't attack from there, having used all their moves up. The question is: do they count as defenders, or are they still on the boat? I suspect they are defenders, so the units from Inchoff 1 can be used to defend blizzard.
Point 1: if this is so, then we not only need to defend cities that can be reached by a conventional landing, but also ones that could be reinforced from there if an amphibious landing is used.
Point 2: Will Lego realise this, or can we use a trick like this to try and hit a lightly-defended city?
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asleepathewheel
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listening too long to one song
Mar 2002
time: 00:36
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they will serve as defenders as well, I believe.
It might definately be worth trying this out, say with 15 inf's landed on a marine secured mountain. Or better yet, a hill and put a settler in the group, instant beachhead that they have to destroy (otherwise if we don't have enough offense, they mihgt just ignore it)
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asleepathewheel
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listening too long to one song
Mar 2002
time: 00:36
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Ok, further along those lines....
I've looked at the map. halfway between quantum mechanico and sandonorico is a coastal hill. We drop a settler and 15-20 inf's on it, they might think that we are trying our trick from the vox war. Sure, the 20 units will die, but they'll eat a ton of cavs before they do. Plus we will have a lot of units adjacent to where we think their FP is and their desert (maybe take out an oil supply)
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DeepO
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supporting Candle'Bre
Jan 2002
time: 06:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Theseus
Preview of naval defensive unit requirements:
Battleships - 4
Transports - 9
Subs - 12
Destroyers - I am currently thinking of 6 fleets, wiht Destroyers as their backbone... how many per? 3? 4?
Carriers - 6
Bombers - 18, of which at least 6 should also be available for offensive tasking. Also, I'm guessing an additional 8 land-based Bombers, if not more.
Fighters - 6
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Wooha! Theseus, please make sure I don't get a heart attack 
No, I understand where it comes from. But a few questions:
1. do we need battleships? Destroyers are better, no? If we get policestations, we've got 1 city which would be better building BSs, but that's it. And I don't know by heart how much carriers cost (160?), but they need to be build somewhere too.
2. carriers: do we need so many of them? Can't this number be halved, and our airforce distributed over our coastal cities?
3. subs: okay, they are nice for reconnaisance, but fighters are a lot better (except they don't spot subs, IIRC). and they cost about the same... we won't have a lot of coastal production power, so if we could cut back on the number of subs (let's say we keep 3 or 4, to scout behind enemy lines where fighters can't reach), and for every lost sub build a fighter, I would be happy. Remember that we need fighters on air superiority if we want to shoot down bombers. Subs don't shoot down bombers.
4. destroyer fleet: sure thing, but what is the average force we can reckon they will try to land with? 10 ships including escorts? we need those fleet positioned so that we can have at least 2 of them on every incoming route. I'm not sure this will be enough. This is the only case were I ask for more ships (we will need them on the offensive too, of course)
quote:
I know it's a lot... but don;t we all have the sense that a killer defensive naval posture is critical? |
Yes and no. As long as Lego doesn't have tanks, and we're building for an invasion, they won't get far if they try to invade. And having too much defense might tick them off, getting them into a cold naval war (which we don't need at all, we need them to be weak, navally) Once we invade, however, it's a different story. We have to make absolutely sure that as we're invading them with all we've got, we're not getting circumvented, and invaded on our own. Nobody is ever allowed to set foot on Stormia, or we're in trouble. This includes the Bobians as well
quote:
And just to stress the system further, I haven;t fully thought it out yet, but in terms of land-based defenses, I am (very preliminarily) predicting:
Infantry - 50
Arty - 25
Tanks - 15-20 |
Do you mean without any invasion forces included in the mix? Because 50 infs shouldn't be too much of a problem in case we've got enough funds (we've got enough obsolete units laying around, and are starting to get up to speed in building rifles). 25 arty is a lot, I prefer 25 bombers if it's all the same to you (we still have 8 cats, though) And tanks: well, seeing that we'll be building over 7 tanks a turn during the war, we'll only need some 10 fixed tanks, also not terribly outrageous demand.
Include, as an extra defense (which we can't count on, but it will be close), the transport chain we'll be setting up. I reckon it will consist of at least 2 transports per link, meaning that another 16 tanks can be transported back from our beach head to Stormia.
Oh, in planning naval defenses, you better plan for that transport line as well: it is imperative that it is well guarded at all times, it could very well mean our lifeline.
DeepO
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DeepO
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supporting Candle'Bre
Jan 2002
time: 06:36
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quote:
Originally posted by vulture
Game mechanics question:
Say, for example, that Lego land a bick stack on the mountanis at Inchoff 1, includnig lots of cavalry. That stack can threaten 3 cities: Inchoff, Winds of Change, and Santa Anna. So we whack most of our defensive units in those cities. Next turn, a marine invasion turns up and takes the now-lightly defended Blizzard. The stack from Inchoff move back into their transports, and the transports move in to Blizzard. The units can't attack from there, having used all their moves up. The question is: do they count as defenders, or are they still on the boat? I suspect they are defenders, so the units from Inchoff 1 can be used to defend blizzard.
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They can be waken from transport, I think, at which point they are defenders, but unforted
quote:
Point 1: if this is so, then we not only need to defend cities that can be reached by a conventional landing, but also ones that could be reinforced from there if an amphibious landing is used. |
I'm not sure I follow... what's the difference between defending at all times against amphibious landings, even if troops are present in our territory? BTW, that has to be quite a killer stack, if they don't get destroyed in one turn with bombers, arts, and tanks (not touching our defenses even)
DeepO
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DeepO
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supporting Candle'Bre
Jan 2002
time: 06:36
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Allow me to bump this thread. It has been silent lately on our defense planning front, and we need the plan fast! I asked for this in the turnthread, but haven't seen much response (probably because it was overlooked), so let's split the discussion to here again.
As turnplayer, let me state what I would like to have as a timeline (currently Turn 215 BTW):
- From Turn 225 onwards, we're facing Marines from Lego. With chaining, they can attack us that same turn. I doubt they will, but we can't take any risk... so our defense has to be in place at turn 225.
- For this, I would like a preliminary break down of forces (and realistic demands, please) ASAP! In the turn thread, there is info on how many defenders we currently have, how many transports and stuff, and how many we can build. Note that e.g. rifles and arts cost the same, and thus the mix between the two can be decided upon, while currently, I'm building pure rifles (I prefer these before we have rubber, as shields are more scarce than gold)
- In Turn 220, I want a full and detailed plan on naval defenses, and where they need to go. Sorry to be strict in this, but otherwise there simply is no time to move them to where they are supposed to go, let alone build the ships. Any sooner would be appreciated!
- Somewhere around the same time, I'd prefer the breakdown of our land forces as well. Also, a decision is needed when we're going to ask for rubber from GoW (I prefer this in turn 223 or 224 at the earliest, if we can do without a bit longer, it would be better).
- Before turn 224, I would like a land defense plan. Every position on the map that needs troops on them, should be named, and troops should be divided. That includes all troops, so including obsolete units we have laying around.
Turn 225 is D-Day (D from defense, in this case ). All units haev to be present, and truely fortified. Any reinforcements later on will be spread to existing camps.
I hope I'm not asking for too much, and that you agree I try to get people to work on this. I'm not a general, and need this info. I can do some last-minute decisions, but would prefer that the team as a whole works on this.
DeepO
Last edited by DeepO on 21-06-2004 at 16:30
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03-06-2004 22:29
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