10-05-2004 04:46									#1
	Our defense after marines Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Guys, I want to open the discussion in this thread again. Normally, I would open with a screenshot of what needs to go where, but to be frank, I'm tired of doing all planning. I'm not the only one on this team, and it sometimes looks that way. Please let us get some interaction going again.

Could somebody please take a screenie, and indicate where he would want what as a defense against marines? I'm talking about defenses in the form of marines on coast, strategical points, and in cities. Also, I'm talking about picket ships, and fast reaction forces. And finally, some idea on scouting in the form of fighters on reconnaisance is also nice, and how we're going to react to that.

We need some plan quite soon, and if we want to be ready with our defenses, and have adequate numbers at hand, we need this plan the coming few turns. Don't forget that GoW is some 25 turns away from marines, and Lego is not far behind if they want to (they don't need electronics for marines). We are going to need those defenses!

DeepO

	10-05-2004 07:59									#2
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I'll see what I can do, though I'm not great at this.

A question:

Can we use the ship fort trick trip?

	10-05-2004 08:41									#3
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Here's a panaromic view of our hemisphere. I should've turned off the units, I might redo if I have time later. Frankly it took me quite a long time to create this alone, as I have little experience with such matters, I'm sure there's a better way than using irfanview and paint, but I am a cheap bastard.

Last edited by DeepO on 10-05-2004 at 16:42

	10-05-2004 09:05									#4
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First we will check out a naval picket line.

Possible units to use:

Ship A/D/M Cost
Bship 18/12/5 200
Sub 8/4/3 100
Dest 12/8/5 120
trans 1/4/5 100
carrier 1/8/4 180

I can think of a couple ways to do this:

We could fort transports w/ warriors (edit: no more warriors I guess, so whatever is left (medieval infantries?) every what, 6 squares (this is where I suck, I can't visualize this well, no experience with the fort trick). This would be a relatively low cost/high risk solution, as the transports would provide a wide net, but woud be decimated. Further if two adjacents went down, there would be a huge hole in the sea net.

With a transport net, we would need back up units right behind, maybe 2 spaces further in, subs would be good for this I think.


What about using a carrier/bomber net. A bit unorthodox I think, but Carriers + bombers give 10 squares of range, more than enough to keep safe from magellan fueld lego ships. OTOH, subs would be a huge problem, as would the expense. I see a bomber net as perhaps the best way to extend our naval picket without alerting them. A sub net runs the danger of detection.

On the west side, ND, I think a loose sub picket in the south would be sufficient, as their ports are relatively small on the eastern seaboard. Granted, they can rushbuy a transport navy there. Bombers patrolling would be sufficient.


To me the key to our survival pre nukes is our picket line. As rubber may not be forthcoming at all from our "friends", we will rely on oil fueled ships (assuming we have oil "rolleyes" and oil fueled bombers to soften up the targets for the destroyers to kill. Unfortunately transports + mag's can travel the space our bombers can fly, so we might have to create a naval based air force. (If that makes sense)

	10-05-2004 09:49									#5
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Here's a rough possibilty

red: subs
black: transports
yellow: fleets

I tried to station the transports to cover a wide area with some minimal redundancy. The subs are backups, but are really to pick out where the insurgents are heading, in case of multiple failures.

the yellow naval fleets are stationed at the points nearest certain key cities to lego, so that they will either be attacked or gone around. I think lego will strike from 7 spaces out, trans' moves to get marines in range. Thus the transports see a few spaces beyond that 7 square arc and we can stop them from landing without casualties.

Last edited by DeepO on 10-05-2004 at 16:43

	10-05-2004 09:50									#6
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hmm. can someone edit those so the images load?

	10-05-2004 16:42									#7
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great to see you're taking up the challenge, sleepy!

I'll edit your posts so they show. Basically you have to use html instead of ubb, and it works...

comments from me will have to wait until after work

DeepO

	11-05-2004 01:09									#8
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fort-trick: I'm not sure about it, but would prefer we don't do it. However, forting ships is a not an exploit, it's only doing it with a warrior using fort all, after the ship has used all its movement points that is exploitish. So we can make a picket line net 7 tiles apart, and still catch all.

However, you mention a very good point: redundancy. We might need some way of scouting, even if somehow our first line of defense fails.

Also, you are right in one other thing: ND does not really have the opportunity to build an invasion fleet in those small harbors without spending either a lot of units, or a lot of gold rushing ships. However, as long as we're not paying attention, they can sneak in a lot of galleys, and just keep them in those 2 harbors waiting for an opportuniy to upgrade, and invade us. Let's get a ship over there right away, so it can start scouting for ship movement right away. That red dot immediately to the South of Pica looks a good lookout spot.

Suggestion: number your dots, so we can discuss them easier.

Also, what kind of numbers do you foresee? picket ships just single ones, presumably, but what about strike forces? Oh, and like your bomber nets, if we include one fighter per carrier: once the picket line is gone, we need a way of spotting where to bomb. And bombing is not lethal, so we need ways of finishing the job anyway.

DeepO

	11-05-2004 05:27									#9
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for the first line, maybe 7 transports and 11 subs to back them up/guard other spots.

I was thinking of a sub in that region between vox and lego, in case lego would try to sneak up and around to hit northern roleplay.


I don't have a good concept of the number of home ships and bombers necessary. Luckily all those forces pull double duty when we go on the offensive, little waste.

I forget how airpower works, its not something I get to much in the game and I don't have time to load an old save up right now...Do fighers get a free shot in, ala cats?

What tiles does a bomber spot when moving? What might be interesting would be to have a carrier with a couple bombers 2 spaces behind transports in the lanes we expect them to use. The carrier moves up 2 spaces to the transport spot, the bomber then flies 6 spaces in to scout. Since 6 spaces is the move of their destroyers, we would get an extra turn's notice on an advance without them knowing. After scouting, the carrier pulls back two squares where a destroyer or something is sitting. Just a thought, I don't know how useful it is...


I have no clue how many ships we need to guard.

Another thing we might do on the eastern coast, assuming we have a full picket line at 8 squares, is to pull all units out of those cities, thus they won't get anything from spying (though nd will help them surely when the time comes)

	11-05-2004 05:49									#10
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I don't think bombers can be as useful in the scout role. They can see things on a given tile as they pass by, but you will not retain the knowledge of what is on the tile after it passes. You need fighters to do recon.

What I am saying is if bomber goes X tiles out and passes over a ship, if you are paying attention you can see the ship fleetenly. You will not be able to know how many in the stack. You will not be able to see it after it has gone by the tile.

Worse you will not be able to sent the bomber out unless you give it a bombing mission and a target. You can't just order a bomber to tile X if you cannot see a target there.

At least that is what I recall from C3C, maybe PTW is different or I am all wet?

	11-05-2004 05:57									#11
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I have no clue, rarely used them in any capacity. maybe soonI'll have some time to check it out in PTW. good points about the fighters, vis a vis seeing entire stacks.

	11-05-2004 06:45									#12
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It is as vmxa1 said - Fighters are needed for recon, as Bombers just show you a quick fly-past.

	11-05-2004 06:56									#13
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well scrap that then.

	11-05-2004 11:16									#14
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Now if they had letahl bombardment as they do in C3C, they would be very useful.

	11-05-2004 13:48									#15
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Yeah, C3C bombers are mighty!

The best early defence would be to have ND allied with us, GoW and RP. I asked MZ about this in a PM, where ND are standing atm - maybe RP could be tasked to persue this. Shall I suggest it to Arnie?

	11-05-2004 22:31									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Cort Haus The best early defence would be to have ND allied with us, GoW and RP.

That is of course true, however I do not trust either GoW or ND to not attack us, even when allied. So I would prefer to have some defenses in place anyway.

quote: I asked MZ about this in a PM, where ND are standing atm - maybe RP could be tasked to persue this. Shall I suggest it to Arnie?

One second with asking Arnie. We need to discuss this diplomacy stuff more in team, after which we need more discussion with them as well. The only thing mentioned so far is some wild idea of mine, we don't know how far we want to take this, if RP agrees, and if other teams would agree.

I'll fire up the discussion again in the thread. Let's keep this on on planning our defenses.

DeepO

	11-05-2004 22:38									#17
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BTW, one request: whatever happens abroad, we need to stack one city with plenty of infs / arts: Elipolis. If RP gets attacked, and we can't help them in time, we have to prevent anyone from rolling into our territory.

DeepO

	11-05-2004 22:46									#18
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I agree with that.

The problem is, all it takes is one city to fall and elipolis will be swarmed by cavs.

How many infantry there? 10? 15? + a radar tower + civil defense? + 15 arties?

How much is enough?

Once we have a full 8 tile net up, we can withdraw all eastern units to Elipolis, since GoW upon marines can take out RP within one turn, would be prudent I think. '

Are there still grudges against RP and us? If Aggie, no, if others???

	11-05-2004 23:08									#19
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civil defenses are certainly something to consider later on, and should be finished in most cities by the time our invasion ends (as right then is the riskiest time for an GoW/ND invasion). radar towers the same. For now, let's plan our defenses without them, though; we still need to get that far.

as to how many units: I don't have a clue. Don't assume cavs, assume tanks and marines. cavs are at most for swapping up duty. I think we're going to look at a minimum of 3 units per city, regardless of our net, and at some 10 units in Eli. Also, we're going to need to staff RP's coast, as it is one of the few spots we can't scout.

grudges against RP: probably. And against us the same. I don't know how far these grudges will reach, though. They are one of the reasons why I don't want us to send all our forces to Lego at once, and prefer an attack in waves.

DeepO

	12-05-2004 02:38									#20
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Let me just ask, why is it we don't absorb RP? If had their land added to us, where would be in terms of production?

I know they were saved once upon a time, but is it still useful?

	12-05-2004 02:42									#21
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it is useful in terms of gold produced, because of the corruption. And conquestadors should be useful if we have enough. And diplo.

Other than that, no, not useful.

	12-05-2004 03:36									#22
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The best defence is to be allied to everyone but the target, who is under too many attacks to be able to counter. ND may be coming GAUL-wards (see GoW log and discussion threads) which would be exactly what we need.

A full tech embargo from ND would be the first goal, followed by lux embargo then military comittment.

Of course there is always the backstab - which all sides of an alliance might have to consider.

	12-05-2004 04:21									#23
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I'm not certain of that, CH. I rather have ND in than out, but what is going to be the first target once Lego is out? ND. So if we can keep from giving them our 3 techs we're ahead of everyone else, we should try to.

Plus, as long as their trading techs with Lego over us, even if we ask them for offers, there is no alliance.

If we can get GAUL in order, we have reason to celebrate. However, we do not have enough reason to let our country be undefended. I fear that would be a critical mistake in case of a backstab...

DeepO

	26-05-2004 00:11									#24
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okay, I've got a few galleons to use, so as long as we can't upgrade these to transports, I'm sending them to your scouting locations, sleepy (red ones first, I assume). I'd like to block surprise assault from ND and GoW first, but those that start on the East side, go scouting Lego.

Any update on this needed?

DeepO

	26-05-2004 04:29									#25
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you're the boss DeepO, I was just making suggestions.

	26-05-2004 04:48									#26
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please make those suggestions, sleepy. I'm not the boss, and I don't want any responsibility when it comes to our military operations. Right now, it may not matter much, but if these scouts are in place earlier, I don't have to move them around every turn

DeepO

	26-05-2004 05:06									#27
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quote: Originally posted by DeepO please make those suggestions, sleepy. I'm not the boss, and I don't want any responsibility when it comes to our military operations. Right now, it may not matter much, but if these scouts are in place earlier, I don't have to move them around every turn DeepO

I haven't seen Theseus post here or elsewhere much lately, hope he's doing well, if busy in real life.

I agree about the scouts. I guess since no one else has commented on the naval defense, we should go ahead and deploy as planned, with some flexibilty if we see some place that they could slip through (a distinct possibilty with their 6 move units)

	26-05-2004 05:13									#28
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6-move units? owh.. right... I thought Magellan gave +1.

The only thing I'm a bit worried about is that if Lego sees us gaining a complete picket line in only a couple of turns, they might think an invasion is coming. Why else would we build galleons instead of destroyers later on, when we can build rifles (or infs, they don't know yet we don't have rubber)

DeepO

	26-05-2004 05:22									#29
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quote: Originally posted by DeepO 6-move units? owh.. right... I thought Magellan gave +1. The only thing I'm a bit worried about is that if Lego sees us gaining a complete picket line in only a couple of turns, they might think an invasion is coming. Why else would we build galleons instead of destroyers later on, when we can build rifles (or infs, they don't know yet we don't have rubber) DeepO

transports + mag's gives them 6 moves.

good point about lego. what do you suggest we do? now or later? We should try to have some idea where there pickets are, so we know where to attack. OTOH, we could have a set of transports whose task is to scout around...

The longer the lego pickets don't see anything, the more likely they are lulled to sleep...would they even move the ships forward two spaces then back, to scout? maybe not.

	26-05-2004 05:41									#30
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I think their ships are forted. This increases sight range +1, which is good enough for the moment. That should also make it possible to spot their 6-movers, if our pickets are positioned well. If they don't attack our picket line, that is

I thought about moving them around a bit, however in that case we need some kind of meeting point for our ships, where they can rest before the invasion. Inside a city isn't the best idea as they can be investigated. But where?

DeepO